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Introduction – 00:00

Ashley Blaker – 01:22The famous frum comedian talks about what he’s been doing to cheer people up

Leeds Pesach Pop-up Shop – 04:09I chat with Marshall Frieze and Simon Williams about providing Pesach food for the entire Leeds Jewish community

Hagai Rossman – 08:41We hear all about how Big Data is helping the Israeli response direct from the Weizmann Institute in Israel

Rabbi Pink – 17:10Representing Chabad Lubavitch Leeds

Rabbi Laura Janner-Klausner – 26:14The Senior Rabbi of Reform Judaism

Keith Brooks – 32:08Profesional Nerd and Frumster discusses why it may be OK to use Zoom on Seder Night

Laurie Rackind – 39:19The Chief Executive of JAMI explains how his charity have quickly evolved

Miriam Lorie – 44:42Discusses why this night may not be different from all other nights

Conclusion – 46:29Hayden provides some closing remarks

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https://marjorieingall.com/

https://www.sorrywatch.com/

Transcript

Hayden Cohen  0:00 

Hello and welcome to the Bagel Bite with me, Hayden Cohen. On today’s show, especially for Mother’s Day in the UK. We have Marjorie Ingall, author of ‘Mamaleh Knows Best’, ‘Tablet Magazine’ columnist and half of  ‘SorryWatch’ to discuss American Jewish culture, comedy, the history of geeks and how to apologise. I say this knowing that at the moment, it’s hard for most of us as we can’t see our mums, but on behalf of all children, Thanks Mum. This was recorded all the way back at Limmud Festival 2018 but I wanted to preserve this gem of an interview for Mother’s Day. Just a quick note before I hit play. I know that I said this will be the last episode of the series, but I think there’s one more left. In light of the terror and madness that is Coronavirus, I want to delve into the Jewish response. Whether it’s provision of services, how to prepare for Pesach/ Passover, or helping people if it is even a twist of Jewishness in there, please get in touch ASAP at bagelpodcast.com. Right, let’s get on with it.

Hayden Cohen  1:03 

How have you come to be sat in that chair?

Marjorie Ingall  1:05 

Let’s see, I think I could thank ‘PJ Library’. They distribute Jewish children’s books all over the world and I think I have them to thank.  Because this year, they gave whoever wanted it, my book, ‘Mamaleh Knows Best’, Even though it’s not a children’s book, it’s a grown up book. And I think that made more people in the UK know who I was.

Hayden Cohen  1:26 

So, what’s the book about?

Marjorie Ingall  1:28 

It’s a sort of funny book of social history and a parenting book. And it’s a look at the history of the Jewish mother stereotype throughout history and sort of where it came from in our pop culture consciousness. But also if you broaden the lens and look at Jewish mothers, not just in the sort of post war period that the jokes came out of, but throughout various different Jewish cultures from the Middle Ages onward, we’ll discover that while there is some truth to the stereotype, there’s also a lot of not truth. And there’s a reason why Jews have been so successful way out of proportion to our numbers in the population and in all kinds of different fields and in times when we have been oppressed and in times when we’ve been pretty acculturated, and I think that has something to do with our values, and I think the primary transmitters of values are often the mothers so we should pat ourselves on the back for doing something right.

Hayden Cohen  2:24 

One of my favorite depictions of Jewish mothers recently, you must have seen ‘Crazy Ex-Girlfriend’?

Marjorie Ingall  2:28 

Yes. Yeah, love.

Hayden Cohen  2:30 

That is a fascinating depiction, isn’t it?

Marjorie Ingall  2:33 

Well, part of what I think is so interesting is the stereotype of the Jewish mother pretends to be loving and giving and generous, but it’s really monstrously self absorbed and neurotic and clingy and provincial. And when you look at the last five years, in which Jewish women are actually creating the comedy, as opposed to Jewish men, you have a much more nuanced depiction of Jewish mothers. My example more so than ‘Crazy Ex Girlfriend’ is, do you have ‘Broad City’ here?

Hayden Cohen  3:05 

We do. I haven’t seen it, but..

Marjorie Ingall  3:07 

So, ‘Broad City’. Susie Essman who was that incredible honking New York Jewish voice who is a regular on ‘Curb Your Enthusiasm’. She plays the mother of one of the characters and while she has the busy-bodyness of the Jewish mother stereotype, she’s also so smitten with and so proud of her child. Not in this braggy kind of way — and her child’s friends and they go out and they get manicures together and they go out and go shopping for knockoff designer handbags in Chinatown together and it is so close and warm and loving. That is I think a thing that we don’t usually see in the Jewish mother depiction.

Hayden Cohen  3:43 

See ‘Big Mouth’? I don’t know if you’ve seen that on that on Netflix?

Marjorie Ingall  3:45 

I love ‘Big Mouth’.

Hayden Cohen  3:47 

‘Big Mouth’ feels very Jewish.

Marjorie Ingall  3:49 

Mm hmm.

Hayden Cohen  3:50 

I felt that the writers there — I think the mix was men and women, right?

Marjorie Ingall  3:53 

Yeah. John Mulaney isn’t Jewish but the others– but certainly Nick Kroll is super Jewish. Yes. Solomon Schechter Day School of Long Island, or Westchester.

Hayden Cohen  4:05 

I love the fact you know the school.

Marjorie Ingall  4:06 

I gave a speech. I had a little joke about how even though it’s hard to figure out what is a Jew today, what is Jewish humour today when we’re not all from the same sort of ‘shtetly’ background now and yet there are still all these incredibly young Jews in American comedy. So I had a whole list of young Jewish comics and I said something like “Nick Kroll, Solomon Schecter of Westchester represent.” I was in this crowd of older women, and they all like laughed uproariously. And I’m like “Oh my g-d! I’m so much funnier than I think I am.” And then it turned out his mother was in the room and so all of his friends, his mother’s friends. So his mother’s very active in the Jewish community. I’m not quite sure what an American Jewish identity is right now. And I don’t know if you would call what somebody like Amy Schumer say does, Jewish comedy but why are there so many of us? What is that about? I don’t know.

Hayden Cohen  4:31 

I think maybe it’s that we’ve got a tradition of being subvertive and we’re encouraged to be so

Marjorie Ingall  4:57 

You know, I think that the old saying about you know, you have to laugh otherwise you’d cry. I think that a part of Jewish identity is: A. make fun of yourself before someone else will do it for you. And B. we’ve had so much tragedy and so many expulsions, that what are the things that you can take with you from country to country? You can take literacy and you can take humour.

Hayden Cohen  5:16 

Well, I think even beyond that though, that you have a look at the type of people that end up in comedy. Most of us in the comedy world, we’re the the awkward kids that were bullied right?

Marjorie Ingall  5:25 

Right.

Hayden Cohen  5:26 

And so and what that does is it says, Well, if people are gonna laugh at us, you might as well get paid for it, right?

Marjorie Ingall  5:31 

No, but you’re right. You know, it’s funny, because the session that I just came from doing was on ‘Why We Should Want to Raise Geeks’, why parents should want geeky children.

Hayden Cohen  5:40 

I did a show called ‘Age of the Geek’.

Marjorie Ingall  5:41 

Yeah, (laughs) team represent. Yeah, you know, I think that geek’iness and comedy, I think are certainly tied. And I think that there’s a certain amount of self awareness that it takes and a certain amount of ‘I know I’m never going to be the cool kid. I know ‘I’m never going to be the popular kid’ but I can be A: really true to myself. And I can B: make people see what is special and delightful about me.

Hayden Cohen  6:04 

Beyond that, what does Jewish identity look like in America? Because I feel like it’s an interesting place right now.

Marjorie Ingall  6:09 

I don’t have a lot to compare it to. It’s all I know. But I also feel like there’s a difference between professional Jews and the larger pool of American Jews. And I think that you wouldn’t know from the organised American Jewish community often just how liberal the larger Jewish community is, in general, because there are a lot of very loud voices on the right, maybe more so than on the left. But when you look at American Jewry at large, we are a super left leaning group. We are as you are here, very driven right now by feeling antisemitism from the left. Just super painful. But overall, the philosophy of American Jews about sort of religious freedom of tolerance, of ecumenism, anti-racism that is pretty strong and has remained the same on the left.  The history of American Jews in the civil rights movement. I feel like we’re still there. And that’s still a huge part of our identity as American Jews, for better and worse,

Hayden Cohen  7:08 

On an average day does it really affect anything? You just go about your business right?

Marjorie Ingall  7:11 

I think nobody goes through their day thinking about what is my identity, right. So as a human as a Jew, as a woman today, put a little sign on your head all the time. I do think it’s funny. I imagine that it’s the same here. Lenny Bruce had this routine about how I live in New York and in New York, everything is Jewish. All the non Jews are Jews. There’s the whole the Jewish goyish routine and in New York, just everything is Jewish, but it is funny to get out in the world, make eye contact with somebody else and I’m feeling Jewish feelings from you. And then it turns out, my mom made laughed because I when I was maybe six, I said “How do you always know when somebody is a Jew?” she just laughed and She’s like, “You’re gonna figure it out.”

Hayden Cohen  7:50 

When I was at university, it was a really big campus. And I could tell these three women were Jewish just by how they walked.

Marjorie Ingall  8:00 

(laughs) It’s a pity, this is not a visual medium because I would like to know what that looked like.

Hayden Cohen  8:05 

And it’s weird — Like, I can’t explain how I knew — It’s weird — Yeah, I can’t — And then sure enough when they they came up, it wasn’t they weren’t wearing like particularly — kind of there’s some Jews that have that particular uniform where I could just tell and sure enough, I recognise when they got closer, and it was like weird

Marjorie Ingall  8:25 

(laughs) Well, it’s funny since I’ve been here. Again, not a visual medium, but I have a whole lot of hair and a lot of curly hair. And I’ve been looking down at my phone and three times now somebody has come up to me and like excitedly called my by the wrong name and that I’ve looked up and they’ve been like, Oh, sorry. But yeah, we all have the same hair. Well, yeah.

Hayden Cohen  8:44 

Or no hair.

Marjorie Ingall  8:45 

Yes. Or that.

Hayden Cohen  8:47 

So how long have you been writing for ‘The Tablet’?

Marjorie Ingall  8:50 

Nine years at ‘The Tablet’. And then at ‘The Forward’ for seven before that.

Hayden Cohen  8:55 

 Ohhh….

Marjorie Ingall  8:56 

Ohh, yes. No hard feelings. Not on my end. And you know what I write for American secular magazines? I wrote my book. I have a ghostwriter. So I’ve written other people’s books, but if I told you who I’d have to kill you, yeah, so it’s just an endless hustle.

Hayden Cohen  9:15 

So that’s the life of the writer isn’t it?

Marjorie Ingall  9:16 

It is. I was a folklore and mythology major in college, which sounds like the most impractical field in the universe. And I was interested in either going to graduate school in folklore or becoming a journalist. And I just figured I’d apply for jobs in state folklore and folk life commissions and I’d apply for jobs at magazines. So whichever one I got first, that would be the sign that that was the field I should go into. And I got a magazine job. And I was like, that’s probably smart because journalism is a completely safe field that’s not going away. So that worked out really great. And now I’ve learned that all these big companies hire folklorists to talk about what the culture of the company is, what it should be, what our ethics are, making sure everybody knows our shared history. So it turned out the thing that was the impractical major might have been a surer bet.

Hayden Cohen  9:56 

You don’t know though, do you?

Marjorie Ingall  9:57 

You never know.

Hayden Cohen  9:58 

You never know .

Marjorie Ingall  9:59 

That’s all Jewish philosophy. You never know.

Hayden Cohen  10:02 

Yeah, I think let’s say, you just throw stuff against the wall and hope.

Marjorie Ingall  10:05 

Yeah, do stuff you like. Going back to the geeky talk that we were having before. Figure out what your passions are.  Figure out if you can possibly find a way to engage them and hope that things work out. Well.

Hayden Cohen  10:16 

What’s a geek?

Marjorie Ingall  10:16 

Well, it’s from an old German word Gek, meaning somebody who bites the heads off chickens.

Hayden Cohen  10:21 

I knew that. Of course, I knew that. I did an entire show about being a geek ’cause I knew that.

Marjorie Ingall  10:24 

Of course you knew that. Do you know about the history of nerd?

Hayden Cohen  10:27 

Um, when you tell me I’ll remember…

Marjorie Ingall  10:29 

Dr. Seuss – ‘If I Ran the Zoo.’ He made up the word nerd in 1950.

Hayden Cohen  10:34 

I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that. Oh cool.

Marjorie Ingall  10:35 

Yeah, no, I think geek is a word that gets a bad rap, as you know, and a geek is the best possible thing to be

Hayden Cohen  10:42 

Do you think there’s too much hipster in it now?

Marjorie Ingall  10:44 

Oh, we didn’t even get to that in my thing. B`ut yeah, I mean, it seems like people who aren’t geeks are now want to sort of take on the mantle because there’s something cool about it

Hayden Cohen  10:54 

More action is…. I was bullied all through school right? Let me be the geek.

Marjorie Ingall  10:57 

Yeah.

Hayden Cohen  10:57 

You can’t be the geek.

Marjorie Ingall  10:58 

No.

Hayden Cohen  10:58 

Oh, I suffered for this, I suffered for this. let me have it.

Marjorie Ingall  11:02 

Yeah, fakes fake geeks

Hayden Cohen  11:04 

Can you identify with Judaism without identifying with suffering?

Marjorie Ingall  11:09 

(laughs) I don’t even know what Judaism without suffering would look like…..

Hayden Cohen  11:15 

I come from, it’s very different to America. Right? So the the norm here is Orthodox, but Traditional, Traditional but Orthodox, whereas I think in America, not so much.

Marjorie Ingall  11:24 

Not at all, yeah

Hayden Cohen  11:25 

And I find that say the reform, the more progressive movements are really optimistic. And it’s something that I find quite difficult. In the same way I do get irritated with rabbis always talk about all everyone wants to kill us. And the reality is, most people don’t care. Right?

Marjorie Ingall  11:42 

Right. They’re just worried about getting through their own day.

Hayden Cohen  11:45 

 But in terms of how it actually manifests itself, it’s really interesting that European Judaism feels a lot more negative probably because of its history.

Marjorie Ingall  11:53 

And you could also argue that optimism is part of the American character. That we’re a new country. Yeah, you’re making a face at me. Well,

Hayden Cohen  12:01 

Well, I think it’s just, it’s one thing that I think speaking for most Brits, it’s a weird thing that we find most irritating about Americans. That unwavering optimism.

Marjorie Ingall  12:08 

Yes, we’re a nation of Golden Retrievers, basically, you know.

Hayden Cohen  12:13 

Mr. Peanutbutter.

Marjorie Ingall  12:14 

Mr. Peanutbutter. (laughs)

Marjorie Ingall  12:18 

Also, We’re a nation that really, really is fond of antidepressants. So it could just be that we’re medicated into joy and happiness. I don’t know. But I do feel like there is something inherently I can’t think of a lot of comedy that comes from a purely sunny place and certainly not Jewish comedy, and not American Jewish comedy. I mean, ‘Big Mouth’, our mutual favourite show that is a dark, dark, dark show. But that ultimately is really kind and sweet, you know, for something so incredibly filthy. And that feels very Jewish to me. But also, there’s somebody who hasn’t had any dark nights of the soul. I don’t think I want to know that person. Happy is particularly beautiful when you know how hard one it is. So I do think people who have fought to be happy are more interesting. Yeah, and I shouldn’t assume I don’t know what God only knows what

Hayden Cohen  13:06 

Yeah, well, we don’t we don’t we don’t know what anyone’s going through, right? (We don’t.) It doesn’t mean I found as the older I’ve gotten, the more I’ve realised that just because I might have been successful in sport, whatever necessarily mean, the happier upbringing.

Marjorie Ingall  13:17 

I get cranky because people always misattribute. The same be kind for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle because we know it’s not Plato, and we know it’s not Philo, but we don’t know who said it. But it is actually a good thing to think about. And another obsession that I was in earlier here at Limmud. Somebody said, just assume when somebody cuts you off in traffic, it’s always good to assume that they are pregnant and in labour, which, okay, a lot of them

Hayden Cohen  13:42 

even if it turned out to be like a bald man.

Marjorie Ingall  13:44 

Right, exactly (and laughs)

Hayden Cohen  13:45  

laughs). in labour

Marjorie Ingall  13:46 

(laughs) I used to live in California. My friend Susan is still in California. We thought it would be nice to be able to collaborate cross country on a project that we both were interested in. We’ve both written, journalistically separately about apologies. And so she approached me and said Do you want to do a website about apologies? And we did in the happy, optimistic Obama years, and then it turned out that apologies and the lack thereof became suddenly super, super resonant.

Hayden Cohen  14:14 

Why do people find it so hard to apologise?

Marjorie Ingall  14:17 

You tell me I bet. You know,

Hayden Cohen  14:19 

I don’t find it hard to apologise.

Marjorie Ingall  14:20 

Oh.

Hayden Cohen  14:21 

Is that weird?

Marjorie Ingall  14:22 

it’s also funny cuz it’s sort of a British. It’s a British and Canadian stare, you know?

Hayden Cohen  14:27 

Well, so I only apologise when I’m sorry.

Marjorie Ingall  14:30 

Oh, you’ve consciously decided not to reflexively go: Oh, sorry. Sorry. Sorry.

Hayden Cohen  14:34 

Yes, abs… Yeah, I did a session earlier and someone got offended at something that I was bemused. I didn’t know what I did to offend. It was a bit strange but I still apologised  because I didn’t want to offend them. And I could see that they were offended by what I said

Marjorie Ingall  14:49 

One of the things that we maintain at ‘SorryWatch’ is don’t apologise if you don’t mean it. You… It only gets you in worse trouble.

Hayden Cohen  14:56 

Well, no, I I was sorry if I offended them.

Marjorie Ingall  14:59 

If? You were sorry THAT you offended them?Yeah,

Hayden Cohen  15:02 

Yeah, I was sorry THAT I offended them.

Marjorie Ingall  15:03 

Right.(pause) Forgiveness is also important that we have to be able to think that people can learn like I think about when you were talking about the homophobia. I think about my elderly relatives before my brother came out just the worst faygeleh talk and, and they were able to learn. If someone slips up, we try to create the world we want to live in. And we want to try to educate people without…. The problem is when everybody screams at one person who screwed up at once they immediately shut down and the chance for learning goes away. So I feel like, saying to people, that we understand that they want to be their best selves. And here’s how this was a moment where they were not their best selves, and we know that they are capable of learning. We might not know that but we want to give them the CHANCE to do better. And the problem with the social media called call out culture is if we immediately assume A. that somebody can’t learn and B. that when we’re getting our own jollies out of feeling superior by attacking other people. It’s problematic. It doesn’t help us. It doesn’t help them.

Hayden Cohen  16:02 

What would you say that line is?)

Marjorie Ingall  16:03 

 Okay. I’ve told the story before but um, you might like it because another adorable bald comedian Paul Scheer, he screwed up. It was not a humongous screw up. He tweeted or instagrammed, a picture of a table full of romance novels. And he totally made fun of them. They were I think they were all hockey romances. So of course, they all had titles that were plays on puck and stick. So Romance Twitter is terrifying. And all of the romance novelists and romance readers attacked him all at once and was like, “You’re sexist, you’re misogynist”. You are this thing that men just immediately go and attack this whole genre. And here’s what he did. First, he bought the book and tweeted the receipt. Then he read the book, and live tweeted his reading of the book. Um, so he turned it into an entertain…. Another thing is there’s a difference between public apologies and private apologies. And he understood that a public apology is a ritual. So he turned it into entertainment and he was casting the book in his head as he was reading it, and at the end, he said, and so he got all these new people following along as he read the book. And he was like, I want to apologise to the author, I did this knee jerk punching down thing of making fun of a thing I didn’t know existed, that I didn’t understand and that I didn’t understand was had been so maligned by so many people who are immediately defensive, because they’re so used to people making fun of them. And then he said he was going to buy the next book, and he personally apologised to the author. So he did all of the steps that you need to do when we talked about the steps of an essential apology, which is saying the thing you did wrong, acknowledging the effect using the words I’m sorry, and doing what you can to make it up to the other person, and he did all of those things

Hayden Cohen  17:39 

Right.

Marjorie Ingall  17:39 

I would like to think that, on the one hand, there are people who are irredeemable, but I would like to think that most of us screw up and we are redeemable.

Hayden Cohen  17:46 

So I think maybe we need to spend more time celebrating these people that just do it. Right. Right? Yes,

Marjorie Ingall  17:50 

Yes. I mean, in general, I mean, it’s fun to revel in stories of bad behaviour. I mean, they’re fun to hear. And you know, as we were talking about good being boring. As a parent, it’s a thing that you want to do is make sure that your kid hears stories of you celebrating good.

Hayden Cohen  18:03 

Yeah, I think that at the same time you do end up with I’m not mentioning any names.  But certain say Hollywood folk who have apologised for some horrendous things and suddenly been forgiven, like that disappear for three years and then come back and make it less mention no names, as we all know who we’re talking about.

Marjorie Ingall  18:21 

Yeah.

Hayden Cohen  18:21 

And that pretty uncomfortable and especially when you see that kind of double standard there a little bit.

Marjorie Ingall  18:25 

(MARJORIE: Yup, Yeah).  Y

Hayden Cohen  18:26 

eah. I was brought up relatively traditional, right. And so Limmud is one place where you meet a plethora of interesting people like that I wasn’t particuliarly exposed to growing up and I can remember there was this one moment, it was Chanukah maybe five years ago, and I was chatting to a couple of my female friends and there might have been stood two or three feet away. And we’re just having an ordinary conversation. In the middle of it, this guy just walks up inbetween us, was back towards me and I was chatting them up. I’d never I’d never seen the world through that lens.

Marjorie Ingall  18:56 

Right. It’s off. It’s I think, men through no fault of their own often just do not know what it is like to go through the world in a female body and just know in a

Hayden Cohen  19:08 

(And we can’t) know.

Marjorie Ingall  19:09 

Yes. Less barring some sort of Tootsie Mrs. Doubtfire kind of situation. But I just remember when my older daughter was 10 and told me “Oh, I don’t walk on that block walking the 10 blocks home from school, and it’s the same block I didn’t walk on”. And just knowing that at 10, she was being cat called. Like, it’s heartbreaking. And just the sheer amount of putting your keys between your fingers as you walk to your car and the stuff that men don’t even think about. No, and we made a joke when we came in here that I was coming into your room to record a podcast and like that’s already like, it’s funny, but it’s also not funny because you know, what is the thing that women think about?

Hayden Cohen  19:47 

I was at a house party a few years ago, and I was staying, I was staying in the house, and I was going to have the living room. I was going to be on my own, but it’s quite a big living room with maybe two or three sofas. I just happen to overhear. There was another girl woman.  She was a young woman, it was a long long commute back for us. Well, do you mind sharing that room with Hayden? And she just laughs and goes, No, it’s okay. He’s a non threatening male. And I was offended

Hayden Cohen  20:15 

And then and then I reflected and I went, well, do I want to be a threatening male? No. And actually, I’m quite glad that my perception is not of a threatening male. But at the same time, it’s like, well, he’s not going to try anything because yeah, is a bit nebbishah. It’s, it’s a  kind of it’s a subtext. Right?

Marjorie Ingall  20:34 

(laughs).

Marjorie Ingall  20:35 

Right. It says something about I don’t want to diminish the burden of being male too.  You know? What does that say that the burden of masculinity as you’re supposed to be? But you are. You know, you’re supposed to be perceived as dangerous. That’s super distressing.

Hayden Cohen  20:49 

(laughs) I’m so not dangerous

Marjorie Ingall  20:50 

(LAUGHS)So the cultural campaign (LAUGHS)… Toxic masculinity is toxic for men and toxic for women. We all have a role to play in changing the culture.

Hayden Cohen  20:58 

I have actually started now. I think maybe in the in the past three or four years having the confidence to call out language that’s unacceptable whereas before I might have just laughed like, yeah, or laughed uncomfortably. Now, Now I try to call it out.

Marjorie Ingall  21:14 

I heard a kid say respond to I don’t remember now if it was a race…, I think it was a racist joke. It was innocent, but and it was so well done. It was ‘Oh um, I know you’re a kind person and that came across as very unkind. And like that was no, that’s such a powerful way to respond to something hateful.

Hayden Cohen  21:34 

Yeah, that’s intense.

Marjorie Ingall  21:36 

Right? But like, if you say something unacceptable, and a child says that to you,

Hayden Cohen  21:41 

 (Hmmm

Marjorie Ingall  21:41 

Whoo), you’re gonna you’re gonna

Hayden Cohen  21:42 

Hmm…)

Hayden Cohen  21:42 

reflect on that but telling people also that I know that you don’t mean it. The way that that just came out is a good way to respond, I think in general, that, that

Hayden Cohen  21:50 

it was said that to me, that would make me feel very small

Marjorie Ingall  21:52 

As it should

Hayden Cohen  21:52 

As it should. The thing within comedy there is there was a lot about why that line is and I find this a lot About offensive word Bingo. A little bit? So in terms of there’s a difference between making a joke about something that might be touchy, as opposed to making a joke about someone. Do you know what I mean?

Marjorie Ingall  22:11 

Yes. When I did the Jewish mother joke presentation earlier and somebody said, Well, you know, how do you think Don Rickles would fare in this politically correct era? And I said, (chatter) Yeah, personally, I don’t use the term politically correct because that the people who tend to use that term are people who tend to be like, I’m mad that I can’t make fun of you know, (HAYDEN: right)people who I used to (HAYDEN: right)be able (HAYDEN: right) to make fun of, but A. no one owes you a platform. Freedom of speech does not mean you get a TV show and B. Look Don Rickles can always have a show on Fox News. Don Rickles can always have a podcast. There’s always going to be a place for people are going to want to go to hear humour that other people find offensive and you know God love you If that’s what you want to listen to. But if the market tells you the market says you know what, we just don’t think that’s funny anymore. Listen, some I’m not a capitalist in all ways, but sometimes the market knows.

Hayden Cohen  23:00 

And that that feels like a very American and a very apt (LAUGHS). Marjorie, Thank you so much for your time.

Marjorie Ingall  23:08 

That was good.

Hayden Cohen  23:09 

Thanks, Marjorie. Until next time, Baglers.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Marjorie Ingall – Bagel Bite appeared first on The Bagel Podcast.

Link: https://www.webelieveinisrael.org.uk/ 

Transcript

Hayden Cohen  0:00 

Hello and Welcome to ‘The Bagel Bite’ with me, Hayden Cohen. Sorry It’s been a while but on that, a change is coming soon. Rather than drip feeding episodes, instead we’re moving to a series model. So you know when a new episode is going to be released, and for that matter, so do I. Everything up to this point, and including one more episode for Mother’s Day with Marjorie Ingall from Tablet Magazine, is going to be part of series one. And then we’ll transition to the new dawn of series two. On today’s show, we have Luke Akehurst,who is a Director of We believe in Israel, heavily involved in the Labour Party, and is generally fighting ‘The Good Fight’. Recorded at Limmud Conference 2019. Enjoy!

Hayden Cohen  0:43 

So for this Bagel Bite, I’m joined by Luke Akehurst, who is the Director of We Believe in Israel, which is a part of BICOM?

Luke Akehurst  0:53 

Yeah, that’s correct. We’re the campaigning bit of BICOM.

Hayden Cohen  0:57 

And so that’s one hat?

Luke Akehurst  0:59 

Yeah,

Hayden Cohen  0:59 

And the other hat, is being quite active in the Labour Party?

Luke Akehurst  1:05 

Correct. So outside of work, I’m the Secretary of Labour First. I guess the rude way to describe it would be a faction inside the Labour Party. It’s the faction that are not fans of Jeremy Corbyn or the tradition that he stands in.

Hayden Cohen  1:20 

We’ll get onto that in a minute.

Luke Akehurst  1:21 

Yeah.

Hayden Cohen  1:22 

I know you’ve been asked the question a gazillion times. Why are you so involved in the Jewish community?

Luke Akehurst  1:30 

Okay, so it started really, with being an ally of the Jewish Society and nationally of the Union of Jewish Students, when I was involved in student politics and student unionism. I turned up at university already broadly sympathetic to the community and to Israel because my grandfather had had Jewish friends  in his teaching career and when he was in the army in World War Two, so that had been passed down through the family, to be sympathetic. I’m not personally a person of any faith, that’s not where I’m coming at any of this. I’m a secular, political ally of the community and and of Israel. And I found at university that me as a moderate member of the Labour Party and the Jewish students had some common enemies, in terms of extremists, particularly on the far left, and I’ve kind of stayed an ally ever since. And then in 2011, I got the chance to work full time on things to do with Israel, which is an amazing thing when you get given the chance to work on a cause that you really believe in. And it’s also given me the opportunity, as someone from outside the community, to get to know a lot about the community. I mean, I’ve spoken to a ridiculous number of synagogues, like something between 150 and 200, or something like that. And, so I get a lot of, the benefits of kind of getting to know a community that’s very warm and welcoming. I don’t have to deal with so many of  the burdens, in terms of dietary requirements and things like that.

Hayden Cohen  3:03 

The Jewish community has a broad spectrum of opinions and beliefs– And that’s everything from on the Israel side, right? There’s a large spectrum. But it’s difficult for me, as someone who is pretty open, relatively knowledgeable about the thing, to navigate this all without someone wanting to shout at me every five seconds. How do you manage it? And how have you managed it for so long? How long have you been doing this for…?

Luke Akehurst  3:31 

Full time for eight and a half years.

Hayden Cohen  3:35 

How do you manage to not anger everyone you speak to?

Luke Akehurst  3:41 

I was hired because I was pretty good at navigating politics, and the internal politics of the Jewish community and the pro Israel community. And of the overlap between the two is just another set of politics to learn– another set of coalition building to do.  And the way I’ve always viewed politics, is not, to build a pure position and then exclude other people from it. It’s to look to build the broadest coalition possible. So you look for what people have in common. I’m lucky in that the organisation that I’m part of, BICOM– Britain, Israel Communications & Research Centre as the parent organisation and then We Believe in Israel, has a set of values and core policies that is deliberately quite limited, but is acceptable to quite a broad sweep of opinion. I mean, we’re basically we’re in favour of a two state solution. And we have red lines around BDS on one flank and Islamophobia on the other flank. And within that, I was given a license to build the broadest coalition possible. It kind of helps that I’m fascinated by the internal dynamics of the Jewish community. So I’ve wanted to learn how to navigate it, and how to bring people together and I think, when I was originally hired, it was probably quite a deliberate choice to go for someone who knew the community quite a bit. But that was from outside, because I don’t come with any baggage that people don’t make assumptions about where I might stand. They know that I’m pro- Israel, but I’m quite careful not to bring my personal opinions on things like settlements or whatever into the job. And I certainly don’t come with any history yet. Because I’m not a Jew at all. I don’t come with, a background of having been in a particular youth movement or affiliation with particular synagogue movement or wherever. So, it makes it easier for me to work with everyone. And I guess what’s even stranger is because I was a counselor in Hackney, I even know the bits of the community that are not particularly Zionist as well. So I know the Haredi community very, very well because, I was on the board of their main Housing Association for six or seven years and the kind of anti-Zionist Jewish far-left. I know because, if you’re in Diane Abbott’s constituency Labour Party, you tend to bump into them a bit. So I kind of have a… Obviously there are bits of the spectrum that are not positively part of my work on Israel, but I, I understand them and know them and I can talk to them if I have to.

Hayden Cohen  6:17 

I now have a long list of questions in my head of stuff to unpick.  I’m going to just start with one. This isn’t, always everything that I’ve been curious about why We Believe in Israel, is that not a bit defeatist? Is that not going well? We accept that the people that don’t believe in Israel. Yeah, I’m a poet, right and performance poet, words are quite important. Why was that chosen as the name of the organisation?

Luke Akehurst  6:40 

Okay, so I came in, as a consultant to BICOM before I worked full time on this. During the period where the name was being developed and I wasn’t part of the discussions about it. But I’ve, spoken to the people that were. And people sometimes look at the name and think, oh, that it must be a really religious organisation. I mean, it makes it very easy to recruit people of faith, whether they’re Jewish or Christian, because they just kind of go “Well, yeah, I believe in Israel better sign up’.

Hayden Cohen  7:06 

I believe

Luke Akehurst  7:06 

I better sign up to this. That wasn’t actually where it was coming from. It was actually people coming from a relatively left position in the community that argued for the name because they wanted to make it clear that it originally wasn’t intended to be a movement. It was intended to be a conference, that catalysed grassroots activity– and then the movement and the network came after the conference as a response to what the delegates asked us for. But they wanted to be able to get people to the conference on the basis that you didn’t have to support everything that Israel did. So this is not I support the Israeli government, or I agree with everything that Israel does.  It is I believe in the concept of Israel. I believe in the foundational values, in the bedrock stuff, of the right of the Jewish people to self-determination in their own land. And then within that, we can include in that movement, anyone that self defines as a Zionist as a supporter of Israel. I’m very very conscious the whole time not to exclude anyone on the basis of a political party, their support in the UK, particularly as I, outside of work have a an affiliation with a particular party.  I’m really conscious of everything that I write, every campaign that I run has to work– whatever political party you support in the UK.  And it has to work whatever political party you would theoretically support in Israel, as well. And it’s like, if we end up with a campaign or something, or a message, that only works for one bit of the spectrum. Well, that’s probably for another organisation to pursue.  We need to stick to the stuff that there’s a consensus around.

Hayden Cohen  8:39 

Right. But then, there is an element of that spectrum, right? So, I come from the perspective of the two types of people who have issue with, and I’m going to say Jews/ Israel, even though recognise they’re two very different things. There are those who come from a position of– they really do I don’t know very much. And there are those who– just are out and out anti-Semites, if you just scratch a little bit beneath the surface. What I’m more interested in– In terms of your overlapping Venn diagram of being very active in the Labour Party, I think that’s fair to say, you know, you’re on the National Executive.

Luke Akehurst  9:20 

I was, yeah.

Hayden Cohen  9:20 

Yeah, yeah. You’re on the

Luke Akehurst  9:22 

At one point, a future member of the National Executive.

Hayden Cohen  9:25 

Exactly. So you were on National Executive Committee.  Just to give a bit of context to our listeners, that might not know the internal workings of the Labour Party. The NEC is the big time right? They are responsible for practically everything of the internal workings of the Labour Party.

Luke Akehurst  9:41 

So when I was on it, there were only six members in those days elected across the country. And I was one of those six. So like, I was one of the… For a very short period of time, I was one of the six

Hayden Cohen  9:52 

It counts.

Luke Akehurst  9:52 

Most popular people in the Labour Party. I’m probably one of the six least popular people in the Labour Party at the moment.

Hayden Cohen  9:57 

No. No. I don’t think that’s true. So you’ve got that Venn diagram–How do you then build that relationship back? Because there’s been so much bad blood, right? What happens?

Luke Akehurst  10:10 

I would like to think, that in the future, once we’ve had the EHRC report.  And the Labour Party has really had to come to terms with antisemitism. I’m not going to say coming into the party, because I think it was always there in a small minority, but coming into positions of influence in the Labour Party and becoming a lot louder and infecting the day-to-day life of the party and the party becoming like a– hostile environment for Jewish members. I would hope, that when the parties come to terms with that– Part of that, will be, the most left wing segment of the party, in terms of its belief in economic and societal change. The people that actually when I say socialism, I actually mean social democracy. I mean like, not changing the economic system, but making life a lot fairer for ordinary people, like are having a more egalitarian society, but without actually turning the economic system upside down. But there are people that literally want socialism in in their lifetimes. They want a different economic system. I don’t understand, why part of that set of beliefs, currently has to include extreme antipathy to Israel and not having a balanced position on the Middle East conflict

Hayden Cohen  11:24 

Is it not is a combination of America and in depth anti-semitism, it’s both isn’t it?

Hayden Cohen  11:28 

So it’s Leninist/ Anti-imperialism basically.  It is basically theory that Lenin wrote in the pre-World War one, about imperialism– being the highest stage of capitalism. And then they see America and Britain as imperial powers. And they remove all the agency of the Jewish people in terms of their search for self determination and just view Israel as kind of a colonial outpost.  To think, that it would be possible, that people would absorb all the lessons about, anti-Semitic/ anti-Zionism and that might be in future, be people that I would still disagree. I’d still think they were a bit crazed. In terms of their economic policy, but they could have dropped, the obsessional hatred of Israel, and that they could pursue all the stuff about a different economic future, but with a balanced position on Israel and the Palestinians. At the moment, part of the package that you buy for a lot of people that sign up to the most left wing segment of the Labour Party, often little parties outside of it, is that it’s just seen as comes as part of the package to be anti Israel. And I think that that’s really tragic. There’s a noble exception, which is the group that now calls itself Workers Liberty, that used to be Socialist Organiser, they kind of have the very left wing economic politics with– They wouldn’t call themselves Zionists, but they would say they respect that most Jews are Zionist. So it is possible, to be very, very left wing and have views that are respectful of Zionism and and certainly Okay, on combating antisemitism.   But it’s sadly kind of rare. So I think that that’s where we are with that set of people. In the interim, until they actually do the ideological soul searching to move on rather a long way. I’m kind of in the game with both hats on, trying to beat them. By weight of numbers. I’m trying to beat them in national political discourse, by mobilising all the people in the country. With the We Believe hat and I want the voice of people that have a rational position on Israel, which is most people, to be a lot louder.  And to beat them in terms of the noise that the media and politicians here. And then with my ‘outside of work hat’ on inside the Labour Party, I want sensible people to join the Labour Party so that we get leaders who don’t come from that extreme anti Israel tradition. I mean, I also want them not to come from from all the other with all the other baggage of being extremist because one day I’d like to see a Labour government electable and doing good things for people that desperately need social change in this country.

Hayden Cohen  13:50 

I’m going to be a little bit rude here when I say this, but ‘Do you think that might be slightly delusional at this point? So if you have a look at, the numbers and you have a look at you know, we’ve got Got leadership election coming. I wouldn’t be willing to put a bet on anyone other than Rebecca Long Bailey winning it, who is for listeners that don’t know Corbyn 2.0,  I mean, I think that she’s definitely of the mould of Corbyn.

Luke Akehurst  14:13 

Yeah, so so I think Long Bailey, she’s not as bad as Corbyn. She’s not carrying as much ideological baggage. She’s probably an easier person to deal with. I think there may be a greater understanding of the Jewish community there because she’s the MP for Salford. So she has slightly more, knowledge, of the community. It’s the people that are backing her and the continuity that worries me is less, where she might want to go ideologically, and in terms of policy, it’s that she’s backed by the whole machinery that put Corbyn in and sustained him and they will be just looking to hold on to the levers of power inside the party and promote people, some of whom have very malign views. Is she beatable? Well, you said about not putting a bet on, Ladbrokes and Paddy Power have got Keir Starmer as the favourite.

Hayden Cohen  14:57 

Really?

Luke Akehurst  14:57 

Yeah,

Hayden Cohen  14:58 

Wow.

Luke Akehurst  14:58 

I mean, that’s my reading of the situation. I might not have said that 48 hours ago. I think, she’s coming under scrutiny for the first time in her political career. Her allies are coming under scrutiny. Things she said about, her political track record are coming under scrutiny.

Hayden Cohen  15:12 

Keir Starmer? he’s quite…. He’s on the right of the party? Isn’t he?

Luke Akehurst  15:17 

He’s certainly not a Corbynite. I mean,

Hayden Cohen  15:19  

(Laughs)

Luke Akehurst  15:20 

Umm, yeah, they would be back. Yeah

Luke Akehurst  15:22 

Yeah. He’s not backed by them.

Hayden Cohen  15:22 

Right

Luke Akehurst  15:22 

But basically there’s a kind of binary divide– There’s like, Are you organisationally, part of the Corbynistas? are you, the rest of the Labour Party? and so there’s about six candidates that are the rest of the Labour Party, but Starmer is the one that is running strongest. When you have other people that are very gonna do very credibly, like Jess Phillips. I think realistically, Starmer is the one that could stop them. So I think, I think it’s gonna be quite tight. I think you kind of need to understand the end trails of the current membership and how it might change. So the current membership, there’s over 400,000 Labour Party members–  only 100,000 people are on the Momentum mailing lists, which is enough to win low turnout elections for the National Executive or whatever. We don’t know yet, if it’s enough to win in a leadership election. There’s another 200,000. So the last leadership election 300,000 vote for Corbyn and 200,000. Vote for Owen Smith. We don’t know whether all of the 300,000 that voted for Corbyn are transferable to another candidate who’s a lot less charismatic, yet just hasn’t got the get up and go that he had. I know. That’s a strange thing to say about Corbyn, but he had a unique, compelling appeal to people’s kind of anti-politician which Long Bailey doesn’t have. And my sense, just following what I’ve seen, go on in my local party is that the hard left lost a lot of people over the Brexit debate. Your average Labour Party member is very pro-European. You’re not talking about about potential labour voters and what’s right to win an election here– We’re talking about card-carrying members of the Labour Party are very pro-European. There were people that were moving just as they were turned off by the factionalism including the antisemitism.  And, then they will have lost some people just like they did in 1983, the shock, most labour members unless they’re completely irrational, they want a Labour government they’re not knocking doors for fun, they want a Labour government

Hayden Cohen  16:39 

Really?

Luke Akehurst  16:40 

 and and if you hit in the face by

Hayden Cohen  17:20 

Do you actually think they want a Labour government because

Luke Akehurst  17:22 

Most Labour members

Luke Akehurst  17:23 

So there’s a minority that are just interested in, being ideologically pure. But if you go out in the rain, particularly the younger people who , didn’t have the experience of going through the 1980s, and having to learn these lessons before. They don’t just take it all for granted. They don’t know as much about electoral maps or polling or demographics or stuff as someone, an old git like me, that’s been around. He was a teenager in the 80s that go on the journey of having people on the doorstep tell them why they won’t vote Labour then sit through the election night and watch your dreams all evaporate. A lot of people will rethink after that.  And I can see peeling away from the left, just anecdotally, you can see it on social media people that you thought were– were wedded to it saying, ‘Actually, we need to think about this again’. So I’m not, absolutely don’t underestimate the scale of the task. But I mean, this is a pretty unique opportunity for the “I’m not gonna say it’s not the right of the party” of the broad sweep, of mainstream labour to get back in.

Hayden Cohen  18:25 

So what would you say to someone like me, right, I was the branch secretary of my local Labour party a few years ago.  Pretty much a year to the day I left, I canceled my direct debit, I’d had enough. The fight had gone. And, now I’m, I have this debate going on in my head.  Right. I’m like, well, do I rejoin to then try and reclaim the party that I once called my political home? Or am I just returning to To an abusive relationship?

Hayden Cohen  19:01 

Well I’m. I have a slightly different answer for Jewish audience or non Jewish audience. For non Jewish audience, I’d just go get your act together and join. Don’t be ridiculous. If you want to change it, you got to be part of it, have a sense of agency, stop seeing politics as something that’s done to you– You want a better Labour Party, you need to be inside it. I’m not going to say something as strident as that to a Jewish audience, because I can’t tell people that they have experienced racism, in many cases, either online or in some cases direct to their faces in party meetings, that they have to go back in and face it.  The primary duty is on us, as the non-Jews to sort that out. So I’d kind of say for Jewish people that feel able, to come back in even if it’s just like as a member on paper to have a vote and maybe not go to meetings until it’s feels a safer environment, or even want to do the halfway house to join the Jewish labor movement and have Vote that way.

Hayden Cohen  20:01 

But I’m actually seriously considering that, because that would just be hilarious. Because I can be like, well, I’ve got a vote. And I’d love the fact that it’d be the Jews, that would take down one of the far left candidates.   There’s some beautiful poetry in that.

Hayden Cohen  20:19 

Yeah. So, the plus side if you just joined JLM, I mean, I’d encourage everyone to join JLM, if they shared Labour’s values and they are Jewish and they’re a Zionist anyway. Because it’s a great organisation. And actually, one of the few chinks of light in this horrible period we’ve had, is the renaissance of JLM, and all the young Jewish people have got involved in it.

Hayden Cohen  20:37 

I joined JLM, but I didn’t want to.– And it’s nothing to do with JLM.  It’s to do with the fact that I had my politics, and I had my religion, and those were two separate things. And yes, one influenced the other, but there were two separate spheres. And because of, what was brought in by since Corbyn came into power in the Labour Party, I’ve had to merge those and I didn’t want to.  I’ve been forced to merge them.

Luke Akehurst  21:05 

It shouldn’t, because it shouldn’t be anyone’s business in the Labor Party what your faith or your ethnicity or your culture is, actually should it’s like, they ought to judge you.– Are you a good Branch Secretary?

Hayden Cohen  21:14 

I was an amazing Branch Secretary.

Luke Akehurst  21:17 

And do you? Yeah, do they agree with you about re-nationalisation of the railways or whatever. But instead, you’ve got this bizarre system/ bizarre situation, where people’s prejudices about Jewish influence and nearly all the tropes and stuff that come into play, and it kind of forces Jewish people to act together inside the party as a block, and as an act of self defense. But to go back to what was said. So the advantage of just joining the JLM, rather than the party is the money you pay only goes to the JLM, not anywhere near the Central Party. The disadvantage is, you’d only get a vote that way in the leadership election, and there are elections to the National Executive Committee that are coming up this year that are going to be crucial for who gets to deal with the antisemitism

Hayden Cohen  22:01 

Are you standing?

Luke Akehurst  22:03 

We haven’t finalised the list but I would kind of like to. Partly because I think I’m probably the person, that runs, that most stridently articulates the argument and that’s sometimes useful for the other eight. It’s a block of nine seats. And it’s sometimes it’s useful to have me as a lightning conductor to do the the tough stuff and everyone else can be a little bit fluffier.

Hayden Cohen  22:24 

So can I? And I’m asking this with respect of all the work that you’ve done, and I’m caveating that. Do you think it would be more helpful if there was someone who was, had shared same similar opinions to you on the Jewish community in Israel? Who wasn’t perceived as being on the right of the party? And that might be an unfair question.

Luke Akehurst  22:24 

Okay. So…

Hayden Cohen  22:30 

That might be an unfair question

Luke Akehurst  22:51 

I try to think where it’s difficult because we

Luke Akehurst  22:56 

Inside the party, we don’t have a good election. system for electing these committees like National Executive.  We don’t have a nuanced proportional or single transferable vote electoral system, that would allow people to run as..– People are running as individuals and on their reputation and stuff. But, it’s very binary, like you’re really you’re not going to get on. Very difficult to get on the National Executive unless you’re either on the hard left slate or the rest of the party slate, which by default, becomes a bit further to the right than it should be. And there is a spectrum of people in the middle.  Actually, a good example is– Alex Sobel, who you probably know well from Leeds, who is not as far to the left of me as he thinks he is. Actually, we probably agree on quite a few things.  He identifies as being from the soft left tradition in the Labour Party. So he identifies as being on the left of the Labour Party, but nothing to do with the Corbynists. And that strand of opinion, should have representation on the NEC but it’s kind of difficult for them to get it, because they’re caught in this binary squeeze. Would I run in Labour party leadership elections? I’m not really running around the issue of Israel and stuff that shouldn’t be what it’s about who knows I’m running on a far broader ticket of what it means to be a Moderate Social Democrat. What it means to be realistic about how Labour wins elections– Where it does come into it does come into it is less that Israel stuff, where there are people that run on the same ticket as me that are very pro-Palestinian, but all of us are united in wanting to deal with the anti-semitism. And all of us, feel that the the hard left, the Corbynistas are not, with a few notable exceptions are not sufficiently tough on that issue.   Because they’re caught in this bind, where they start expelling people for breaches of the IRA definition that chucking out lots of their core activists, because it’s so close to the heart of their movement. It presents them with acute dilemmas. When I say about people on my side of the party that I disagree with about Palestine like: Lisa Nandy. Okay, some people would say she’s soft left.   Broadly, she’s not a Corbynista.  Ben Bradshaw is an out-and-out Blairite. Both of them, are heavily involved in Labour Friends of Palestine, neither of them have ever been accused of anything antisemitic. And in fact, I think the Jewish community would perceive both of them as pretty helpful.

Hayden Cohen  25:09 

I can remember, the pre 2015 days, there were people who were in the PLP, the Parliamentary Labour Party– Who were members of both– Labour Friends of Palestine, and Labour Friends of Israel,

Luke Akehurst  25:23 

They still are,

Hayden Cohen  25:24 

right.

Luke Akehurst  25:24 

Yeah, like quite a large number, like a couple of dozen.

Hayden Cohen  25:26 

This shouldn’t be an issue there really.  Because it’s just about showing solidarity, understanding that, you know, there’s both sides going on here, and I don’t.  I just think it’s a shame that we’ve seen.  Everyone seems to have to pick a side. It’s just so depressing. You know? Like why do you have to.  If you are of the Labour Party, there are certain things that everybody believes right? You know, you believe in a welfare state, and a safety net for those who are most vulnerable. Those are things to agree on, right? I don’t. Are we going to get back to?  It does feel a bit Kumbaya when I get that, but I quite a bit of a Kumbaya.  Are we, do you, think there is ever a time when we’re just gonna go ‘Ugh, oh, those few years were terrible, but now the Labour Party is back and raring to go? Or do you think the Labour Party’s just gonna fade into obscurity? And something else is gonna have to come on and replace it?

Luke Akehurst  26:25 

So no, I don’t think it’s going to fade into obscurity because the country needs a center. Yeah, it needs an opposition party.  It might be out power for a long time, but we’re not going to be a one party state. The Conservatives are going to do things that people disagree with. And the other big thing that happened in the election other than a comprehensive rejection of Corbynism– Was the Liberals had the opportunity of a lifetime with Brexit as a big issue. Pleasant enough leader. They come out of the electorate one seat smaller, there is no alternative vehicle The thing that every Labour MP took that not that there’s many of them left. But the thing that the 202 or whatever Labour MPs took away from the general election is– You leave the Labour Party, you’re basically out you’re out of politics at the next election. So there’s not going to be breakaways or splinters or realignment. There are some people listening to this, that are Tories, and they might be happy with it. Not every not even every Tory, but some Tories would be happy with the idea of a perpetual Tory government. Fine. I’m not. I want a more socially just society. I want a different kind of society to the one that the Tories are offering. How am I going to achieve that? The only vehicle in town for the foreseeable future is the Labour Party. So you either allow the Labour Party to carry on being rubbish, and just kind of give up on politics and you know, take up golf or something instead. Or you get stuck in, and try and change it and turn it back into a Labour Party that can win elections. By the way, when I say back, I absolutely don’t think that we can rerun 1997, I mean, the world has moved on, we don’t have a Tony Blair figure. We don’t have the society, that created that landslide Labour victory in 97. whatever comes next needs to be solutions for now, for the 21st century, for two decades into it.

Hayden Cohen  28:16 

So I just want to bring it back a little bit. So if if there is someone who will and you probably get this all the time in your job, they say to you, “Well, Israel’s an apartheid state. a racist state. What is the kind of line that you can take to go? “No….”, Well, how do you address that?

Luke Akehurst  28:40 

if there’s someone that is happy, is actually prepared to read and engage? I’ll give them the link to Alan Johnson’s pamphlet, ‘The Apartheid Smear’– BICOM publication from a couple of years back, which comprehensively debunks the whole thing.

Hayden Cohen  28:55 

I’m guessing that’s not the Ex-MP?

Luke Akehurst  28:57 

 No, Alan Johnson, Professor Alan Johnson, Senior Research Fellow at BICOM. If it’s quicker than people made that apartheid allegation. You got to be clear about which side of the green line you’re arguing about. So there’s a situation, inside the green line, in pre 1967 Israel where it is very easy to debunk it.  Because yes, there are discriminations and inequality is the same as there are between races and in the UK, but the Israeli constitution. Sorry, I’m wishing the constitution but yeah, the Declaration of Independence talks about the rights of all pre existing inhabitants. There are things that were features of apartheid, they’re just a million miles away from Israel. So there isn’t segregation on public transport, in parks, in hospitals, in the staffing of hospitals, in shops, in most strands of employment, there are some bits that are separated out like education is in different streams according to religion, but that seems to be something that the different faiths all want. And everyone has a vote, so Arab citizen Get to help pick the Knesset they get to sit in the Knesset, the third largest group in the Knesset is the Joint Arab List.  You can hold senior roles in the Israeli state, up to ministerial level, you name it all of these things that were not open to the majority, non-white population in apartheid South Africa.  You then have a situation in the West Bank, or Judea and Samaria, according to what you want to call it, where lives are a lot more segregated between Israelis in settlements and Palestinians in the PA controlled areas. But, quite a lot of that segregation, is for security reasons, because people used to be able to mingle more freely before the Second Intifada, and then people are physically more separated in order to prevent terrorist attacks. So, if that was a permanent situation, then Israel’s got a difficult question to answer about the apartheid allegation. If it’s like Israel is going to rule over the West Bank inperpetuity, and not give votes to the Palestinians.  That’s no more apartheid than, British occupation of southern Iraq or the Helmand Province.

Hayden Cohen  31:07 

Right, There’s been two recent elections in Israel. And it’s really been between two parties–Both of which didn’t wasn’t really talked about. You know what  mean? This issue wasn’t really talked about it. So, you say that it’s not done as a permanent solution, but if you’re not talking about it, then you just let it go on in perpetuity. Right? And so for someone like me, who is I’m sympathetic to Palestinians in so far as, these are people who are suffering, how do you get around the fact that, there are Palestinians who suffer? And the Israeli government? I’m being very careful with my language, the Israeli government has a part to play in the resolution of that?

Luke Akehurst  31:53 

Yeah, I think there’s a failure of leadership on both sides. I don’t think Abbas. I mean, he is a very old guy. He is not going to be around forever. He doesn’t seem in a great hurry to reach a solution. In fact, the internal debate in Palestinian society is more about reaching a solution between Hamas and Fatah than it is reaching a solution with the Israelis. And I don’t think whatever his other qualities, which he’s not been the worst Prime Minister in the world, even as someone that probably wouldn’t vote for him.  He has many qualities. I don’t think Netanyahu has had pursuit of a peace deal at the top of his agenda. But yeah, I mean, you talked a bit about Palestinian suffering– Even if there was no material suffering for the Palestinians, if they had a really nice western style, life. They had all the prosperity that they wanted. They had total economic equality with his with Israelis, if they don’t have self government. That is a problem for me, as a Zionist. As a Zionist, I believe in the self determination of all peoples. I can’t believe in that just for the Jews. Because that would make me a racist,  wouldn’t it? If only believed in it for Jewish people, I didn’t believe in it for other peoples that saw self determination. So ,if they feel that they need in a state, at some point, they’re going to have to have a state or at least be given the choice of whether to have one or not. And there is this problem that can be brushed under the carpet by Netanyahu or maybe even brushed on the carpet or GaNS for a decade longer or two decades longer. But at some point, you reach the fundamental crux of the thing. What makes us real great is that as a Jewish and democratic state, you can’t maintain both of those in perpetuity if you rule over another set of people in perpetuity, because if you’re going to maintain the democratic principle, you’d have to enfranchise the West Bank Palestinians and then birth rates and stuff might mean that you lose your Jewish identity because one day they become a majority in the state or if you want to maintain your Jewish identity, but can continue to hold All the land in Judea and Samaria, the West Bank, then you can’t give the franchise to those people and it at some point, you can’t claim to be democratic anymore. It’s only sustainable while it’s while there’s some recognition, that this is temporary, and there’s a final status.

Hayden Cohen  34:16 

But haven’t,

Luke Akehurst  34:17 

 has got to be reached.

Hayden Cohen  34:18 

It seems like both the Israeli government and the Palestinian government have almost given up on the two state solution. Have I misread that?

Luke Akehurst  34:27 

I think they’re happy just to have it on the back burner that there’s no political appetite on either side to do very much about it at the moment.  And, we need the international community to put it back up the agenda. But I think they have to do that through carrots rather than sticks. I think they have to incentivise the two sides, to come to a lasting deal rather than kind of punish Israel, particularly as it is usually one sided.  It’s usually Israel is a proposal to punish. We’ve also got to be realistic that the situation looks different on the ground– That if you are an Israeli, you’re looking at the risk that you do a deal. And then you end up with a big version of Gaza– firing rockets from up in the hills in the West Bank down onto Tel Aviv and on to the airport. Or if you’re Palestinianleadership, there’s a risk that you get your statehood, and then Hamas come and kill you in the night and take it over like they did in Gaza.

Hayden Cohen  35:21 

And that’s it right? We’re sitting in comfortable chairs, in the UK, and chewing the fat, right, where we’re not actually living there

Hayden Cohen  35:28 

 Yeah, Yeah. And it’s whenever you go there, most of the Israelis, I talked to, ‘theoretically’, believe in a two state solution, but they’re like, not until we’re sure about the security safeguards.

Hayden Cohen  35:38 

Which is reasonable, right?

Luke Akehurst  35:40 

Yeah. Because it’s their families. They’re at risk.

Hayden Cohen  35:43 

Right.

Luke Akehurst  35:44 

And then I think we also have to be, conscious of- we’re judging it by our standards.  Within the context of the region, when right next door you have the Syrian civil war, and other an unstable states. Actually, this does look like something you can lecture for.  Yeah, it’s not top of the list of priorities, about number four or five– Israel security concerns is–  How do we deal with the long standing problem of whatever the Palestinians get a state or not? Because it’s kind of livable. It’s like, life is not great for the Palestinians. When I go to Ramallah, it’s not appalling either. It would be possible to live a reasonably livable life. You know, there are shops, there are cars, there are schools, there are– Not enough jobs, but it’s not hell on earth. I mean, there are bits of Hebron that pretty horrible, but and when you get into the refugee camps, which are not camps, they’re kind of slums that existed for 60 or 70 years, whatever the people are attracting.   Life is grim. But it’s not as grim as Palestinians that live in Syria, for instance, who have a lot of women died or Yeah, the camps have been shelled.  And Yeah,

Hayden Cohen  36:49 

I don’t know, Is it not depressing, though? It’s kind of like top Trumps grimness.

Luke Akehurst  36:54 

Yeah, but we’re talking about, we’re judging this by the standards of the very privileged position we have….

Luke Akehurst  37:01 

 As people living in a– “Let’s hope it stays that way post Brexit, we’re very stable political entity”. And we’re looking at the Middle East.   And war is a thing that happens repeatedly there. Terrorism is a thing that happens repeatedly there.  Denial of it, is not just the Palestinians that don’t have a state, the Kurds don’t have a state. All kinds of other minorities don’t have states and are subject to persecution. So this doesn’t make it perfect. But it is kind of “We need to bear in mind that Israel is trying to be”– A modern, liberal, democratic country, and to large extent, succeeds in that, but in the context of a region ,where that’s extremely rare to have a state with democratic values and with any respect for human rights.

Hayden Cohen  37:50 

So I’m kind of wanting to wrap up. I know there are non Jewish listeners. What would you say, Is the greatest form of allyship, that someone who isn’t Jewish, can give?

Luke Akehurst  38:09 

Not being a silent bystander. You don’t need to agree with everything that Jewish people think about their connection to Israel or whatever.  Jewish, we can’t even agree with each other about what they think about,

Hayden Cohen  38:20 

(Laughs)

Luke Akehurst  38:21 

about Israel. I would say, Please don’t do negative things that make things worse like boycotts. If you feel a desperate urge to get involved in the quest for Peace in the Middle East; Then have a look at the Board of Deputies and the stuff they have around Invest in Peace, and all the kind of great projects that exist in the Middle East that trying to bring people together. Yeah, so there’s stuff that exists across both sides, as well as there is stuff that’s Israeli based and Palestinian based, but the board has like a pretty comprehensive

Hayden Cohen  38:48 

Okay.

Luke Akehurst  38:49 

Listing of things that you can get involved in that are positive.  And that don’t involve either making Palestinians feel bad about their identity or making Jews feel bad about their identity and their connection to Israel. And Then we come to the broader question of antisemitism. The most depressing thing in the Labour Party has not really been the small minority of people perpetrating the antisemitism. It’s been the wider group of people that have kept their heads down. Yeah, you’re at a meeting or even a social event. And someone says a trope. Yeah, they start talking about Rothschild conspiracies or whatever. And the Jewish person actually says, “Oh, that’s so offensive. I’m probably gonna have to go home” or “not come to the next meeting”. This is I can’t cope with this. This is just like– Yes, old fashioned antisemitic tropes shouldn’t be the Jewish person has to stand up and call it out. Maybe you, as the non Jewish person can take the flack for them. It’s probably not a good idea to scream anti Semite people because then they just kind of go into lockdown, but saying what you’ve just said, Is it a trope? with antisemitic connotations? We shouldn’t have that kind of language, in this workplace or in the Labour Party or wherever. I think that–That’s probably the useful thing that people can do not to be silent. And that requires you to educate yourself a bit about what does contemporary anti semitism look like. Because to be able to spot it, you have to read the IHRA definition, and you have to read some of the history and to understand which things are particularly hurtful to Jews some of it is obvious like comparing Israel to Nazis or to be obvious that that’s incredibly hurtful some of the stuff like around blood libel, I’d never heard of blood libel for I worked during this I’m glad I’d never heard of it is gross. Yeah, that’s it. That’s the accusation like–Jews or Israelis reveling in the killing of non Jewish children,

Hayden Cohen  40:36 

No Jews, Jews, not Israelis, Jews. Yeah

Luke Akehurst  40:38 

Yeah. But you need to kind of learn and understand and like understand where that came from in kind of Christian antisemitism and stuff in order to

Hayden Cohen  40:46 

William of Norwich from the 14th century.

Luke Akehurst  40:48 

Yup

Hayden Cohen  40:48 

Yeah.  One thing that that no one can ever accuse you of Luke is not speaking up– Luke. Akerhurst has been a pleasure as always. Thank you very, very much.

Luke Akehurst  40:58 

Thanks.

Hayden Cohen  40:59 

And that’s that See you next time Baglers.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai with additional editing by Ronni Bloch

The post Luke Akehurst – Bagel Bite appeared first on The Bagel Podcast.

Introduction – 00:00

Beverley Jane Stewart – 01:46 I went to Beverley’s art studio in St John’s Wood to see how she delves into the synagogue experience. (photo at the bottom)  

Israel Update – 12:41 Gilad Halpern provides us with an Israel update now that they’re heading to the third election within a year.

Cooking with Miri – 28:16 I keep on mispronouncing the rice dish, Mejadra with Miri Lewis. 

The Bagel Broigus – 37:55 Recorded in Manchester prior to the General Election, this broigus is about if/how we can remain friends with people we disagree with. The panel includes media man Simon Jacobs, Yehudis Fletcher who combats extremism within the Jewish community and the Brexit party candidate for Salford, Matt Mickler.

Talmud for Schmeryls’ – 01:01:19 Rabbi Benji Stanley discusses what the Talmud says about being nice to each other.

The post Thrice, Be Nice, Rice and Artistic Delights appeared first on The Bagel Podcast.

Transcript

Hayden Cohen  0:00  
 Hello and welcome to the Bagel Bite with me Hayden Cohen. So for this one we're going to British politics again with ex deputy leader of Enfield council labour Councillor Daniel Anderson. This episode was recorded back at Limmud Festival last December, but it's still incredibly relevant probably with the exception of the occasional mention of Prime Minister Theresa May. Simpler times. Before I hit play, I just wanted to say that I acknowledge that The Bagel does have rather a lot of left leaning folk on. However, the next main episode will include the Brexit party candidate for Salford and basically I'm always willing to chat with anyone and everyone, as long as the conversation is respectful and challenges ideas rather than attacking people. If you're listening to this and thinking my view as someone who is part of the Jewish Community is not being represented, please do get in touch at bagelpodcast.com. I'd be genuinely honored to hear from you. Also, if you're enjoying these episodes they do take quite a bit of effort to produce, especially the main ones. Do share with just one friend. Go on then, three if you're feeling particularly generous, and let them know about The Bagel, you can even listen on your smart speaker of choice. It works! Leave a review on iTunes or Facebook, sign up to the mailing list. These are really little things that massively help the podcast out. Which leads us nicely onto the conversation between myself and Daniel Anderson in my makeshift studio in my room at Limmud Festival. 
 
Hayden Cohen  1:35  
 So we've known each other now five years and this is how we celebrate by by talking at each other romantically in my room. It's weird, right? I've just got, I've just got married -
 
Daniel Anderson  1:58  
 I didn't know you got married 
 
Hayden Cohen  1:59  
 You didn't know I just got married?
 
Daniel Anderson  2:02  
 Friend anniversary! Some friendship that is. 
 
Hayden Cohen  2:05  
 It was up North.  
 
Daniel Anderson  2:07  
 Oh, well, what can I say? Well, where is she.
 
Hayden Cohen  2:10  
 She's not a Limmudnik.
 
Daniel Anderson  2:12  
 Really? 
 
Hayden Cohen  2:13  
 Yeah…. 
 
Daniel Anderson  2:13  
 Are you sure she exists? You haven't just made it up? 
 
Hayden Cohen  2:16  
 I mean, I got the ring. 
 
Daniel Anderson  2:19  
 Well it could be anything, you could have just got it off the back of a lorry? I don't know. 
 
Hayden Cohen  2:21  
 It's true. It's true. 
 
Daniel Anderson  2:24  
 Well, what can I say? If you're waiting for the present, you may wait awhile.
   
 BOTH LAUGHING

Hayden Cohen  2:31  
 Said with the voice of Labour right?
 
Daniel Anderson  2:33  
 Absolutely
 
Hayden Cohen  2:37  
 So yes, you you've been a Labour Party member for how long?
 
Daniel Anderson  2:40  
 Oh, gosh, that's that's a good question. I first got involved in local politics in the 90s. And I was first elected in 1998. And I served a four year term back in those days.
 
Hayden Cohen  2:54  
 Things things will only get better. Right?
 
Hayden Cohen  2:55  
 That was the time. It was a four year term under that on Enfield Council. For me, it was a four year term and I retired in 2002. I walked away and I said never again. In fact, my joke is this. I returned in 2014 after retiring and again my joke when I returned in 2014 was it's my Sean Connery moment. Why Sean Connery? Well because you remember he filmed Diamonds Are Forever in 1971 and he said never again. 12 years later he returned in Never Say Never again. So here I was exactly 12 years later and I said it was my Sean Connery moment.
 
Hayden Cohen  3:28  
 Nice. So why did you go back?
 
Daniel Anderson  3:32  
 Why? Well, I think the first question is why did I quit? I was younger, we were in the leading party at the time/ I had my I had my moments in there. I was on the scrutiny system. But frankly, I wanted to do other things with my life and it was not long after when I went off to yeshiva for a time and had slightly different experiences in my life; got on with my life in other sorts of ways. But in 2014, I started getting itchy feet and decided "well, I need to sort of focus myself for what I really want to do." And I got back involved in the local party and thought "Hey, I think I could do this again." And it was a step by step.
 
Hayden Cohen  4:15  
 It's interesting, right? Because 2002 versus 2014. The Labour Party was pretty similar. I mean, yeah, fine. You'd gone Blair to Milliband at that point, but effectively, it was pretty similar. Since 2015, The Labour Party has transmogrified. I think it would fair to say that's Ed Miliband's fault. And I was thinking do I want to use the word fault? I'm using it measuredly. So just for listeners who may not know about British politics, Ed Miliband made the decision to change Labour party membership from the people who could vote for the leader from members to those who were £3 supporters. And so what that meant was that a lot of far left people who didn't want to spend 40 quid a year, but would have no problem spending three quid a year. Is it fair to argue that that would be the reason why Corbyn became leader or not?
 
Daniel Anderson  5:27  
 Yeah, but I don't think it's totally fair to blame it all on one person as in Ed Milliband. 
 
Hayden Cohen  5:31  
 It's fun though, isn't it? 
 
Daniel Anderson  5:32  
 It's convenient. In the same way we blame the referendum on Brexit on David Cameron. I think it's a bit more complex in all these issues. In Milliband's case there was a push. It's amazing. If this would have worked out well, everyone would have said what a brilliant idea this was and we have to thank Ed Miliband. Because it went all horribly wrong, it's all Milliband. "What a fool." Whatever. The idea was to try and open up participation. It works with primaries in America and so they thought this would be a really good idea. But like all things, if you don't build in appropriate mechanisms to check and regulate it, then it's open for abuse. And that's what happened. No one could have foreseen or imagined because if they would, they wouldn't have done it. It opened up the doors for a number of people from far left groups to become involved. Socialist Workers, Communist Party, so forth. And they basically took control in a way and we know what happened. We had a leadership election of which there were four candidates.  It was Yvette Cooper, Liz Kendall, and Andy Burnham. And of course, Jeremy Corbyn, who only got on the paper because he needed to 39 people to nominate him and some of the people who nominated him didn't vote for him, but they thought they wanted wider choice. Well, how wrong you can be. It's always the issue. Be very careful what you do, because it could have profound consequences, which indeed it did. So he got on the ballot paper. 
 
Hayden Cohen  6:47  
 I was a Labour Party member at that point. I voted in that election. I can remember looking at all the policies, looking at voting records and this type of thing, knowing that Jeremy Corbyn was of a politics I didn't share, in terms of being further left than I thought was pragmatic. And actually, I just happened to disagree with his worldview, right? But then it's democrat is democracy and whatever. So effectively, I voted against Corbyn. I didn't vote for any of the other three candidates, you know, like the others were just boring they were just boring and dull and didn't have a vision. So you know, I can actually understand why people voted Corbyn. Corbyn came along, and went this is my vision of the world. What was a New Labour vision at that point? All three of them were effectively New Labour. And what was that vision? There wasn't one.
 
Daniel Anderson  7:41  
 I think you've put the nail on the head. Visions win support. And that's it. I mean, Simon Sinek wrote a book, 'Start with Why' and it says people don't buy what, they buy the why, and I totally agree with you. I think what became clear over that campaign is the three others had no clarity, no vision. What it was really saying was, after all these years of New Labour, they had no answers. They weren't able to articulate a vision of the Labour Party, let alone one for the country and Corbyn. Let's not try and turn him into a demagogue in this way. I think this is just mistaken. You have to understand --
 
Hayden Cohen  8:19  
 Go on. Go on. Do it!
 
Daniel Anderson  8:21  
 I may profoundly disagree with many of the ideas, but the man articulated clarity of thought. It might be simple, but actually it was a simple message. He offered a reaction to what was going wrong and came up with a compelling vision in that way. And they completely underestimated it and he did appeal to many people. 
 
Hayden Cohen  8:38  
 Do you think he's antisemitic?
 
Daniel Anderson  8:40  
 Okay, this is the question. I think in his eyes, I don't think he is. His vision of antisemitism or as he sees it, he is very supportive of the local Jewish community and he will go to Chanukah lightings and so forth. He will defend local communities. He will be appalled of people who throw a brick through synagogue windows or do things like this. He'll be appalled at what went on with the Nazis and Auschwitz and stuff like that. He will do that, genuinely does turn up. However he has a problem with this connection with Israel. He has a problem that sees that Jews have this connection with Israel. He sees it as a distinct issue in and of itself. And a difficulty he has with the State of Israel, which is fundamental to it: he defies all the ideas of groups which are suffering and challenged and so forth, the dispossessed in the world. Because Israel's successful, because actually they're supported by American money which goes against the imperialism idea. Nevermind the Arab states are getting support from --
 
Hayden Cohen  9:38  
 That's the bit I've never quite understood. Right. So I can understand going "the Palestinians have been vastly more unsuccessful than the Israelis" right. And so as a result, show more solidarity with them, but at the same time in Hezbollah and Hamas and all these organizations, these are organizations that are homophobic and sexist and you know all the isms and all the ists that I've got going, in a way that the Jewish community as a whole isn't. So there might be like rabbis or whatever that might be. But generally, as a community, the Jewish community is pretty tolerant. I just don't understand how we can reconcile those two things.
 
Daniel Anderson  10:18  
 Well, they don't reconcile it. What they do is they push aside, like, if you're a bad scientist, you will selectively pick evidence which suits what you wish to do and push aside that doesn't. And that's what's going on here. They've created a narrative of the world. And to fit that narrative, they have to obviously cut off that which is uncomfortable. So that's what many of these people who volunteer in this particular way have done. So you're absolutely correct. The fact that all those things that, you know, gays can be stoned in these countries and you know, and women's rights are completely oppressed in this way. These are secondary and pushed sort of under the surface, where what they try and do is pick on all the sorts of things that are said about Israel and the nasty things and it's all because of this imperialistic philosophy. So it isn't robust in a way anybody outside of it and many of them, supporters of Corbyn, exist in an echo chamber. Look, we all, To be fair, all of us to some extent create our own echo chambers. Social media creates that opportunity. But I think what's happened in the last few years and the reason for Corbyn, the reason for Trump in America and so forth. I think the growth of social media has really, what it's done is enabled people who are perhaps on the fringes to connect in ways which was never previously possible. And I would say to you what's happened in the Labour Party, the hard left extremists who've joined, we've got people who are former communist party members, people who are currently involved who will never
 
Hayden Cohen  11:33  
 Aren't some of them currently communists? I thought some of them had joined both. 
 
Daniel Anderson  11:37  
 Well they may well do, but we've got serious people you know, members of Unite union, Andrew Murray, for instance, who's in my constituency in Southgate. He is a former member of the Communist Party. He's now a leading supporter of Corbyn in this way. You've got others, you know, the Morning Star now, endorses Corbyn in this way. So you've got people who are always on the fringes, they have now taken positions in local parties in there which doesn't reflect many of those who were elected into positions. Many of us have faced deselection battles and so forth. 
 
Hayden Cohen  12:06  
 Have you?
 
Daniel Anderson  12:07  
 I did. We had our local elections in May and this time last year, we were going through this sort of process and I didn't get automatically re-selected. I had to go through a process and there was some of those in Momentum, who were seeking at the time to perhaps challenge me and to put others in my place and that failed.
 
Hayden Cohen  12:26  
 Can we touch a bit on Momentum? Recently I find them more interesting. For a while there was this perception that Momentum were a bunch of cranks and lunies. From people who weren't in it. That was a kind of perception that it's fair to say quite a few people had. And now you know, the Momentum lot that were protesting against David Icke. You could argue that that's easy. I don't mind saying that David Ike is a controversial figure.
 
Daniel Anderson  13:05  
 Okay, so that's one way of putting it. I find it very hard to believe this guy used to present Grandstand and then he starts going into shell suits and going on Terry Wogan. I mean this guy was a crackpot. And he's now talking about lizards are controlling the world and lizards are Jews. He's totally bonkers. I think anybody in the right mind would say this man's bonkers. So your point about Momentum - by all these things, you can't simplify these people into being all bad enough aside all ---
 
Hayden Cohen  13:31  
 Because I know loads of people joined Momentum because they believe in left wing principles. The antisemitism has nothing to do with it. 
 
Daniel Anderson  13:38  
 I think that's exactly the case. I do know people who are in parts of Momentum. And some of them, I can talk to very well and I would class them as friends and people I can talk to. I don't think it's so easy. So what we do is to polarize people. And because of the antisemitism issue "they're all bad. Everyone else is all good." I think it's far more complex than that. We prefer things to be black and white but actually it's far more grey than anyone would ever like it to be. So I think that's certainly true. And they will take issues on this. And they will stand up against antisemitism in the way that I've defined it and so they have a difficulty with Israel. This is the point and we struggle with and I'm afraid over the summer when all this stuff was kicking off in the Labour Party, it was some unpleasant stuff with some of these people were doing which were unable to separate. My issue is about being left wing or being out there is one thing. When you start idolizing it against one person and Jeremy Corbyn was becoming your G-d. In the same way Tony Blair, for many on the right wing will consider as G-d that's a very dangerous place to be because what you're then doing is identifying the politics with the person. That's really bad. Because if you are so tied up into that person, there's two ways it can go. That person as we will know, is not perfect, and they're going to make mistakes or they're going to get caught out in some way. You either have two choices, then if you've tied your whole politics into that person, your life and then reject your total philosophy because it's around that right or basically you just tied themselves into them such that you cannot see their faults. They're so perfect. So if they are found guilty of all sorts of misdemeanors, you defend them to the hilt and you rubbish everybody else as a smear, it's all nastiness and you cut aside that which is uncomfortable.
 
Hayden Cohen  15:07  
 I feel that everyone seems to be having a different argument. So I've had this on Facebook. So I've seen people go Zionism is racism. Right? So I then go to them, "What do you think Zionism means?" And their definition is radically different to mine. And so I say to them, well, what's the difference in your eyes between being Zionist, being pro-Israeli, or being supportive of the Israeli government? And there hasn't been that navel gazing in the far left because it's not for them to navel gaze on, right? So they just have these soundbites. They don't necessarily think. When Yachad conducted that poll said something like 90% of British Jews are both supportive of Israel and against settlement expansion.
 
Daniel Anderson  16:03  
 And support boycott Divestment and Sanctions which is interesting. 
 
Hayden Cohen  16:06  
 Do they? 
 
Daniel Anderson  16:07  
 Well, you quoted that poll. That a Momentum supporter in Southgate, often quotes this Yachad pole and says "Look, he says 25% of Jews believe that some sanctions against Israel will be used. Now I say to him, "No, no, look. You want to take this unit let's we need to look at the basis of the poll, who's conducting the poll? I said the Jewish Policy Research Unit is probably more of an accurate polling booth. But they selectively pick those sorts of things out and they will let draw it in a particular way. But I find the interesting thing is as I said, the way they've gone about this way you you know people got themselves into their comfort zone and they are unable to see another side so you end up- This is why your Jewish Voice for Labour is a reaction to "how can we defend that we're not antisemites?" So this group has been formed which have no real connection with the Jewish community. I've never had a real connection and the few that have, many of them have disassociated themselves to try and say look, we do like the Jews, we just don't accept Israel. So you can be a Jew and hate Israel. See, we're okay, we're justified. So you create this idea in this way. I had this on the Facebook forums of our party where a handful of people were looking like "the whole lot think like this", but it was just a few people engaging. what they're really saying is, you know -
 
Hayden Cohen  17:15  
 Good Jews and bad Jews.
 
Daniel Anderson  17:16  
 What they're trying to say is "Who am I, as in to speak?" I said I think I can because actually, my views are represented by the vast majority. Let me say this about Jewish Voice for Labour, they're not just a minority group in the way you're trying to balance it up on the scales, there are statistical anomaly. It's a bit like giving a platform to the Flat Earth Society to discuss science. It is so preposterous as to give them equal weighting. And this is why I refused. Southgate. CLP was trying to introduce bringing the JVL to have a discussion last month and it was pulled at the end. Once you legitimize these groups in that way, you're getting yourself-- it's like sharing a platform with David Irving about Holocaust denial. Once you start giving legitimization to certain people which have got views which are so appalling, so false, so flawed, the whole nature of debate gets completely destroyed.
 
Hayden Cohen  18:01  
 So at what point would you say I can't be in the party anymore, I've got to go?
 
Daniel Anderson  18:10  
 That's a great question. You asked me earlier about Jeremy Corbyn and where's does it go --  Look, I think he's peaked. I think in 2017 was his peak. I think he's out on the downward side. That's not to say that there's an alternative, which is so obvious and so clear cut because I don't think there is. We're in a very unpredictable era. But you're asking me about where -- look. How can people vote Labour? I say to you --
 
Hayden Cohen  18:30  
 That's not the question I asked. The question I asked is ---
 
Daniel Anderson  18:32  
 At what point do I walk away? 
 
Hayden Cohen  18:33  
 Yes. 
 
Daniel Anderson  18:33  
 What point do you walk away? It's a great question. What I say to you is this. What people need to understand is I'm a local Councillor, and I'm involved in local politics. Jeremy Corbyn doesn't tell me what to do. Right? He doesn't run the council. We have an elected Council in its own right. We have a leader of the Council. I'm deputy leader of the Council, and we are responsible locally for implementing policies. I call local politics a franchise of the national picture. That's why you have good councils and bad councils of all political colours? Because effectively we're not all following the same direct policies. You have good Labour councils, bad Labour councils. Good Tories, bad Ttories and all sorts of things in between. Okay, we have different ways or philosophies - it's true. But the day to day stuff, you know, is generally down to the practicalities. 
 
Hayden Cohen  19:19  
 Can I ask is there much difference between a Labour, Lib Dem or Tory Council, as opposed to a --
 
Daniel Anderson  19:25  
 I think the issue, there can be. Coming back to the point there are good councils and bad councils. It really depends how dogma driven they are and how that applies itself. But we have certain principles which we keep referring back to, that we will not go down and we will not do. But again, how it actions itself is very much down to the people you've got on your councils. How effective they are at dealing with the basics. Local government is about dealing with the services that most people are interested in. How you bins have been emptied. How your roads are been swept. The state of your libraries. But also the other areas which are becoming much a challenge. Social care, children services and when you've got less of budgets to actually facilitate that, these are where the challenges come. So in answer to your question, which is what you asked me, I'm trying to not being a politician, trying to answer your question, but it is this. What time do you walk away? I think the issue is this. Why I can still make a difference. Can you make a difference in a tangible, practical way? I've not encountered an issue within the Council of a problem for me as a Jew in that way. 
 
Hayden Cohen  19:26  
 So I can ask, do you wear a kippah out and about?
 
Daniel Anderson  19:52  
 I do. I do. And I've not encountered that problem. It's not an issue in that way. So the issue for me is I'm deputy leader of a council. So people said to me, "How can you still be a member of the Labour Party?" My answer is okay, let's try and understand it. You want me and others like me to walk away to be taken over by others who probably may have a very different view. How will that help the community? How does that help any of us in that way? To me it's pretty stupid. Right. So I think there is an issue locally as opposed to what there is nationally. I think as a national issue it's certainly true. Many people argue "Vote for me! I'm not a Corbyn supporter, but vote for me to become your MP." People will rightly say "But if I do get a number of you, Jeremy Corbyn will become Prime Minister. So why am I going to support you in that way? And it's very difficult to say, well, we won't allow it to get to where it is but the arguments but you can't control them now. Why are you going to control them when you're in. It is a problem. I accept that. But I think things are going to change. I'll give you my prophetic ideas. I actually think Corbyn will not win an election. I don't think the left will will win an election because I just don't think they'll win in the shires. I think they've maxed out to what they can conceivably do.
 
Hayden Cohen  21:30  
 I talk about little Norma Smith that lives in the middle of Norwich. Who is little Norma Smith going to vote for? It'd be Teresa May.
 
Hayden Cohen  21:40  
 Yeah, I think it will be. I think many people look but by the same token, if the future for Labour is this, who's the alternative?  Again, its vision wins over, and for all his faults, it's more than just Corbyn. "So get rid of Corbyn and it'll be OK. No! It's unfair to blame it on one person. He for whatever you think him, he didn't get their own his own. There are many people around him, What are they holding? Where are they going? The trouble I have for those on the right of the party -- Look when he was challenged a year later by Owen Smith, the infamous challenge. Remember two days after the Brexit vote, they all resigned on mass. Remember that famous Sunday?
 
Hayden Cohen  22:20  
 I would just like to clarify for listeners, the reason why I went "uhh", it's just because --- 
 
Daniel Anderson  22:24  
 Owen Smith.
 
Hayden Cohen  22:27  
 Owen Smith again is not inspirational.
 
Hayden Cohen  22:32  
 Well, that's my point. I'm saying to you is Owen-nobody's-ever-heard-of Smith. And at that time, they all resigned on mass. I thought at the time, someone like Hillary Benn: someone with substance was going to come forward, say I'm going to challenge Jeremy Corbyn and this is what I'm going to challenge him. This is my policy.
 
Hayden Cohen  22:47  
 Even Chuka (Umunna).
 
Hayden Cohen  22:49  
 They've all had a lot to say and they've done nothing. They've failed, right? If he was the best they could do. I spoilt my ballot paper. I couldn't vote for Jeremy, but I certainly can vote for Owen Smith. I thought this is just a farce.  The question is, politics is about pragmatism. Right? There's too much ideology. There's too much for fitting things that they would like it to be. As we know, as a kid, when your mommy tells you, you can't have it, you can't have it. There's no point shouting around screaming saying I can't have it. You don't you just have to say we lost. So I say to you, in politics, we've had two and a half years of stagnation, because nobody anywhere has articulated a vision for this country. And that's the challenge what we need to see from all of them. And on the left, in particular, if they don't come up with a vision Labour will be in opposition for an extremely long time.
 
Hayden Cohen  23:30  
 I want to get back on to Jewish stuff. 
 
Daniel Anderson  23:32  
 Okay. 
 
Hayden Cohen  23:32  
 How does your Judaism affect your politics?
 
Daniel Anderson  23:35  
 Yeah, it does affect my politics. Look, I am openly Jewish in this way. But in a sense of how does it affect my politics? We've just finished reading the part of the book of Bereishit, Genesis, and the role model for politics is Joseph. Joseph is the model of going out in the outside world and impacting into the world in this way. So it's an extremely good role model. I think that's what I would utilize as the ideal. The other thing, the lesson in politics is --
 
Hayden Cohen  24:06  
 So you advocate for brothers putting their youngest brother into slavery. Is that the official line -- 
 
Daniel Anderson  24:14  
 Yeah.
 
Hayden Cohen  24:15  
 -- as the Deputy Leader of Enfield Council?
 
Hayden Cohen  24:17  
 Absolutely. Absolutely and  being challenged with Potiphar's wife. Effectively, yes, it's not a perfect model, Hayden. Okay. just clarify, but I do find it a very, yeah. There's many things you can find in Torah sources about how you should behave, how you should seek to be. My issue is about again, not trying to impose your view of society. We're an open society. The Labour Party endorses a whole range of different ideas and you have to be accepting of all people. You can't impose negativity and things so I try and treat people as fairly. I look at the issue as everybody treat them all the same. We're all part of a community. Jews, Christians, non Jew,  whatever. We're an open, tolerant society and we have to try and accommodate people in that way. And I find my --
 
Hayden Cohen  25:03  
 Do you think we are an open and tolerant society? 
 
Daniel Anderson  25:05  
 We are. Yes. I think we try to be. We try and create that. I think there are good people. Look in spite of what you read in the media, there are good people who are good people from all communities that work together and it works very well in in my borough and we have very good communal relationships. So I think that's a tremendous positive. So I seek to try and do that. But I'm also look, I have no illusions of grandeur. The other thing I say about the lesson you learn from the --
 
Hayden Cohen  25:29  
 So no Prime Minister Anderson?
 
Daniel Anderson  25:31  
 I have no intention of going into national politics. Frankly, I have more power doing my role than many MPs have. A backbencher? What the heck did they have? I can actually make a difference. We have a 1 billion pound responsibility.
 
Hayden Cohen  25:44  
 Let's be fair. A billion pounds is only going to be worth about a fiver in a about a year. 
 
Hayden Cohen  25:49  
 Very good. But the fact of it is, it's big challenges we have to make, but I've done things, you know, I was cabinet member environment. I'm responsible for a Mayor funded 42 million pound cycle scheme. The Mayor of London's funded this program. It's very contentious. Some people love it, some people hate it, you know, whatever, it's fine. Actually making big changes to the area improving the look and feel. Sustainable drainage programs, we were one of the leading parties in delivering in this. One of the leading councils, both in this country and abroad at delivering those sorts of projects. So we've done some tremendous programs, which make a real difference to the people. And that, to me, is the legacy that you have, but I also know looking at the parsha and looking at what's going on. We know in the parshat to come, Shemot, it says a new Pharaoh arose over Egypt that didn't know Joseph, and the lesson to that is, once you're gone, you're either forgotten or you're blamed. And that's something that I think we always have to keep in mind. You know, I have no illusions. One minute you're up here one that you're down there and that's fine. 
 
Hayden Cohen  26:44  
 Will you be forgotten or blamed?
 
Daniel Anderson  26:48  
 On the cycle scheme, I think people like me, they won't forget me. They'll say well that's a great scheme. They might forget me personally, that's fine. If people like me they'll say that blummin Anderson. It's his blummin scheme. Look at him. So I mean, whatever. I heard the Chief Rabbi earlier speaking and he talked about leadership. If everybody loves you, you can't be doing anything. And if they all hate you, well, he says, then you're not a mensch, but he says get in somewhere in between. The fact of it is, you can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs. If you get things done, certain people are going to like what you do, certain people are not going to like what you do. So you've got to have that realization. If you can't take the flack, then effectively things aren't going to work out. 
 
Hayden Cohen  27:26  
 So if there's someone who wants to get into politics and are a member of the Jewish community, what would you say to them? 
 
Daniel Anderson  27:32  
 We have a tremendous heritage of social activism. Avi Wise, a Rabbi in America, wrote books about spiritual activism. Yeah, it's quite interesting. He's an interesting figure. But we have a tremendous example over the years of Jews who've been involved in political life. I said, Joseph biblically, but over the years, you've had many, many different people across the world who've been involved in social activism in this way. It's in our DNA. And I think basically, you shouldn't just sit home if you've got a problem. I like Stephen Covey's 'Seven Habits of Highly Effective People'. And one of these seven habits is, he talks about circles of influence, and circles of concern. People who spend their time shouting at televisions or going on protests, but don't actually do anything in a practical sense or social to concern. The fact is, I cannot change the problems in the Sudan. I can't from here anyway. If I wish to make that difference I have to get involved in a group that goes out there and tries to make a big difference in that way. And many people are concerned. Have social concern. They watch on the television, it concerns them, but they don't do anything. Don't give to charity. They shout about it, scream about it, can't do anything.
 
Hayden Cohen  28:33  
 So the moral is, do something. 
 
Daniel Anderson  28:35  
 The circles of influence are about the things that you can personally involve yourself in. What can you do? What's your particular interest and go and make it so? Stop talking about it, get off your tuchus and get out there and try and make a difference in whichever way you can. You'll find your path. You will do it. So I'm much more interested in people who do than people who just talk about doing. And that's my lesson to everyone. Everyone's out there. Please go and do it. If you want to get involved in politics join your local party, preferably the Labour party, but that's your choice. Hey, but that's the way I suggested anyway.
 
Hayden Cohen  29:05  
 Daniel Anderson, thank you very much. 
 
Daniel Anderson  29:07  
 Thank you. 
 
Hayden Cohen  29:07  
 Thank you, Mr. Anderson. And that's it. Until next time baglers.
 
Partially transcribed by https://otter.ai

The post Daniel Anderson – Bagel Bite appeared first on The Bagel Podcast.

Introduction: 00:00

Unorthodox Podcast – 01:25
You’ll hear my stint on a certain famous American Jewish podcast,

Israel Update – 03:44
I chat with Arnon Degani (standing in for Gilad) about the Arab effect in the recent election,

Miri & Jon’s Brunch Part 3
Miri takes us through her homemade hummus recipe,

Talmud for Schmeryls’ – 17:50
Rabbi Harvey Belovski’s shares the reason for the creation of the world in Talmud for Schmeryls’,

Shul Meditation – 23:19
Rabbi and Rebbetzin Samuel and Shoshana Landau of Barnet United Synagogue explain how they brought meditation mainstream

The Bagel Broigus – 34:13
The Bagel Broigus is all about whether shul (synagogue) is a waste of time). It features Danny Kada, the Rabbi of Wembley Spanish & Portugese, Ben Shapiro of Moishe House London and Naomi Soetendorp who has founded numerous grassroots Jewish communities around London.

Photo: Rabbi and Rebbetzin Samuel and Shoshana Landau of Barnet United Synagogue with Hayden Cohen  

The post New Year Special appeared first on The Bagel Podcast.

Introduction: 00:00

Talmud for Schmeryls’: 01:00
We talk purity with Rabbi Debbie Young Somers who provides a Talmudic approach to Niddah (ritual purity)

Mikvah Project: 07:55
Miriam Lorie chats to us about the Mikvah Project.

Jewish Museum: 18:20
I also went to the Jewish Museum to talk with Jemima Jarman about British Jews. It felt a little bit ‘Yey, Jews!’ but I suppose in our current climate, a bit of positivity isn’t such a bad thing.

Miri & Jon Brunch Part 2: 23:33
We also have Part 2 of the Build a Brunch series with Miri and Jon where we make summer latkes (definitely not potato waffles!)

Bagel Broigus: 28:09
To round it out, the Bagel Broigus is about the Jewish response to the climate crisis with pragmatic solutions featuring Lara Balsam from JVS, Andree Frieze from Eco Synagogue and Michael Lomotey from Extinction Rebellion Jews. 

The post Purity, Summer Latkes and the Climate Crisis appeared first on The Bagel Podcast.

The post Keith Kahn Harris – Bagel Bite appeared first on The Bagel Podcast.

The post The Miseducation of Eating appeared first on The Bagel Podcast.

Transcript

Hayden Cohen  0:00 

Hello and welcome to the Bagel Bite with me Hayden Cohen. This episode is with Alfie Ferguson who, is not an advocate or a worker for an LGBT+ charity, but instead is just one person telling one story providing a perspective, I certainly had not heard. Before I hit play on it. A couple of things. This conversation is friendly, but also raw. I could have quite easily edited out any awkwardness but this whole thing is about leaning into the awkwardness and pushing past it. This bite is also not completely LGBT+ focused in content and is the last in our LGBT+ series for the moment anyway.  Just one last thing. This was recorded at Limmud Festival prior to my interview with Dalia Fleming of Keshet. In case you’re wondering about the chronology of the whole thing. The next episode will be fully fledged and have lots of vegan content, but we’ll try not to be too hippy. Enjoy Baglers.

Hayden Cohen  0:53 

Thank you for joining me. I was told that you had an interesting story to tell. And at the bagel.  I’m kind of interested in hearing interesting stories,

Alfie Ferguson  1:01 

I mean, thanks for let me come on Hayden. We’ve met like five minutes ago, really? And you said you wanted to hear interesting stories. I think it’s just another story within the Jewish community. I don’t think this is interesting. It’s just adds to the flavor that we already have in our community. Really?

Hayden Cohen  1:16 

Okay. Yeah, fair enough. So how has your journey led you to this point?

Hayden Cohen  1:20 

Again, very personal as a black Jew. Now, it was I was very, very aware of my family’s background and my family background is that we are my mother and my father, both from the West Indies and we have very English British sounding names. Our family are Christians. My family’s background is Christians, Catholics. And before even having a lot of knowledge of that you you grow up and you know, you have an affiliation, you have a feeling for something, you trust your instincts. And, obviously you have your First Holy Communion, confession and you’re supposed to become confirmed within the Catholic faith, which I think was at 13 something like 12 or 13. And it wasn’t for me, I I realised very early on, I didn’t believe in the Catholic faith. I wasn’t interested and I firmly said, No.

Hayden Cohen  2:05 

Out of interest, was that to everything? Did you reject all of it? Or do you say, there’s these things that I don’t particularly like? And I find another way….?

Hayden Cohen  2:15 

As a young adult, you know, as well as I do, you go where your parents tell you to do. They give you the path that they have been given and they think is the right thing for you.

Hayden Cohen  2:22 

Right, sure.

Alfie Ferguson  2:23 

And as as you get older, you come up with your own ideas, and I went to church religiously. We went every Sunday. We had Sunday school. You obviously had lessons leading up to your confirmation and it didn’t make any sense to me. I didn’t feel it. I feel that you’re supposed to feel something when you come out of somewhere that’s supposed to be religious. You’re supposed to feel something whether it’s anger, disappointment, whatever, and I did, it just didn’t do anything for me. So

Hayden Cohen  2:48 

It’s actually really I’ve had this conversation with rabbis over the years myself, right. And they’ve There’s kind of Jewish concept where they say ‘Don’t Think, Do’. It’s this weird thing where they say, ‘you know, just do the stuff’. And then the actual, the thinking, the thinking part of it will come later. Interesting.

Alfie Ferguson  3:07 

I mean I’m sure that’s very true for you but it’s not true for me. I did what I was supposed to do. And I don’t believe in doing things that don’t do anything for me. And if I don’t believe it’s the right path for me, I will just jump off the boat and find the nearest other little life raft they’ll take me somewhere else that I want to go.

Ronni Bloch  3:26 

 So yeah.

Alfie Ferguson  3:26 

I’m you’re speaking your truth and I’m not speaking mine.

Hayden Cohen  3:28 

Exactly.

Alfie Ferguson  3:29 

See, So it’sThe only way I can describe mate (laughs) , It’s the only way I can describe it.

Hayden Cohen  3:31 

(laughs) ok, so so that happens. He went, yeah, Catholicism, not for you?

Alfie Ferguson  3:36 

No

Hayden Cohen  3:36 

Then what?

Alfie Ferguson  3:37 

Absolutely nothing. Because I was at school. You’re doing your thing. Yeah. You’re growing up as a, you know, you’re growing up, there was nothing. There was absolutely nothing. What did happen was, I started spending a lot more time researching black history, particularly to do with slavery, particularly to do with the West Indies, and the island that my parents come from, which is Grenada. And I suppose this is where the flip starts coming in. Assimilation is a big word in the Jewish community. And it’s a big word for me. My family and my ancestors who I do respect because if they hadn’t done what they needed to do, my mom and dad, my grandparents, my extended family, myself, we would not be here. But let’s be frank, we all know what happened. You assimilate to what your overbearers do.  You talk the language that they do to make sure they see you more as a human rather than an animal and a beast of burden? You take on their religion again to show you’re more human and you’re taking on their values, even though they still think you’re an animal. And assimulation from from what I can tell from my, from my perspective, I’m sure my mum and dad might disagree because they are children of the Empire. We do have discussions we don’t all see eye to eye but for me, the reason why my family’s Catholic the reason why we speak English, the reason why we all have British surnames is because of slavery. And I will not have that. I make my choice about my religion. I make my choice about who I pray to, if I pray to, what is going to be coming into my realm, and for me, I mean, I haven’t taken up an African name. Don’t get me wrong, And maybe that’s something that might happen in the future, but to take on the religion of the your overbearers and to continue it. And the only reason why generations of my family are Catholic is because if they didn’t assimilate, they would not have survived. It’s that simple, slaves did not survive unless you took some of the identity of your overbearers. That’s very much how I look at it. I’m going to be frank, my mom and dad wouldn’t kind of agree. Because they come, you know, from a different era, different priorities, survival is much bigger of a thing for them than it was for me. You know, my dad did believe in a wooden shack, basically, he’s done very well for where he is. So you’re not gonna be upset about how you got better in life. But for me as a as someone who’s born in Britain, don’t get me wrong. I’m, I’m in the land of where all that money got taken to. And I do feel like I should have a right to that. But it just wasn’t for me, and I decided I wanted a different path.

Hayden Cohen  5:56 

Why Judaism?

Hayden Cohen  5:57 

Why Judaism? Um– There’s extra things. I mean, don’t get me wrong, I am fully aware. I’m going to get some comments which is you’re reacting to your last religion, but Catholicism, Christianity as a whole. I’m very confused by having a Jesus Christ that looks blond haired, blue eyed and like came out of Sweden. I don’t understand it. If you add to the slave narrative, you break a people, you you break their culture, you break their language, you break their traditions. And you insert Christianity, you put the image of a God who looks like your overbearers, it helps with the mindwashing In my opinion, again, my mom and dad would disagree with that. But uh..

Hayden Cohen  6:37 

But how do you have this conversation? Well, you know,

Alfie Ferguson  6:39 

I had this conversation with my father, I can’t happen with my mother. And she’s never going to hear this podcast, which is why we can talk so frankly, about this

Hayden Cohen  6:45 

Laughs

Alfie Ferguson  6:46 

So, but my father, my father could could handle it. He could, he could see where I was coming from. My mother, you know, we all know women are the bearers of passing on culture between in families.  Especially in Jewish families, especially in Greek families. In most ethnic minority families, it’s women that pass on the culture. So she’s not happy. She’s not gonna kick me out the house of the Eternal, she would prefer as a Catholic,

Hayden Cohen  7:08 

 Right?

Alfie Ferguson  7:08 

It’s not gonna happen.

Hayden Cohen  7:09 

So does your family, can they separate? Or do they separate out the culture from the religion? Or is it now merged for them?

Hayden Cohen  7:17 

I think I think you know, what, I’m in a different age to them. Though my parents I believe, had a better education than me because of the kind of teachers that had. you got, remember, you were in the West Indies. British people couldn’t wait to go to the West Indies on a journey so that some of the best teachers the best minds went all over the Empire to teach ‘the savages’. I’m gonna just put it like that.

Hayden Cohen  7:37 

Let’s clarify. For the listeners. There was air quotes.

Alfie Ferguson  7:40 

Yeah,

Hayden Cohen  7:40 

for the savages. This is (laughs)

Hayden Cohen  7:40 

(laughs) Yeah, I do not believe my race is a savage. I’m just trying to say we’re trying to be a bit a bit provocative. I think Hayden knows where I’m coming from. When they say the sun never set on the Empire. That’s exactly what happened. All those people who lived in the Empire, who were technically slaves, who then went on to be participants in the Commonwealth. They are taught to think as a Brit. You’re taught to take the religion of those people you’re taught, and you know, those things are very hard to break.

Hayden Cohen  8:08 

Right?

Alfie Ferguson  8:08 

Very hard to break. I mean, I don’t need to spell it out, you know, you understand what I’m saying. I’m sure your listeners will understand.

Hayden Cohen  8:13 

Yeah, he’s answered. My question is that you know that there’s lots of religions out there, right?

Hayden Cohen  8:19 

Yeah, of course, So the image of God, the image of God in Christianity is a blond haired, blue eyed man, I am not doing that. And what’s the big thing about Judaism? Where’s your image of God? Where’s the image of God? There is no image. The image of God is us.

Hayden Cohen  8:35 

believers in Islam either?

Hayden Cohen  8:38 

I’ve never I’ve never researched Islam to be honest, essentially.

Hayden Cohen  8:40 

Yeah, in…

Alfie Ferguson  8:41 

never. Never. Never. I mean, maybe there’s something in the back of your head that says Judaism before Christianity. Maybe that’s you know, you can’t undo everything in your head. Maybe that’s a possibility. I never bothered looking at Islam

Hayden Cohen  8:52 

at all. There’s no no depictions of God in Islam either

Alfie Ferguson  8:55 

you might well be right, but i don’t know about it cuz I never ever researched it.

Hayden Cohen  8:58 

laughs

Alfie Ferguson  8:59 

Hands up, hands up

Hayden Cohen  9:00 

 So what was it? What, Was there someone of that came into your life that was kind of that attracted you to?

Alfie Ferguson  9:07 

I knew some Jewish people who I was quite impressed with. I was also impressed with some of the principles. Let me say there’s, there’s things that I thought about Judaism before I started and that maybe now I’m here living living the dream

Hayden Cohen  9:22 

laughs

Alfie Ferguson  9:22 

As a Jew (laughs), I may not have exactly the same ideas, but at the time…

Hayden Cohen  9:27 

Can I can I yeah,I really want to. Can we try and unpick that? So what what was it? What did you What was your perception before? that you then realise afterwards?

Alfie Ferguson  9:37 

The perception was, that I couldn’t be a Jew. That was the biggest perception because I didn’t see any black people who were Jewish at all. Don’t get me wrong, if I paid more attention to America would have seen much more examples. But in Britain, I didn’t see those examples. And for what for whatever reason,

Hayden Cohen  9:51 

I think it’s fair to say there are plenty of black Jews but but it’s still a minority of the Jewish community are black there’s not

Alfie Ferguson  9:58 

You’re right, but you know what black people don’t pay attention to other black people. And I didn’t know anything about black Judaism and in Britain right now, I don’t think there’s a huge amount of knowledge about black Jews within the black community. And that’s unusual. Black people know about other black people. But we don’t know about black Jews. Maybe now. I mean, I’m on the black Facebook pages. And now I’m proudly saying I’m a black Jew in various conversations on websites. But like I said, you take an interest in who you are

Hayden Cohen  10:25 

Right

Alfie Ferguson  10:26 

I didn’t know anything, once I went on to the American sites everywhere, everywhere. But I imagine there’s a much bigger black Jewish community out there than there is over here. The thing that was, I’m going to say sexy, which I know maybe some of your podcast listeners won’t like but what’s sexy is that the autonomy is very attractive to me. You get to study, you get to make up your mind. You can say I think that’s a load of rubbish. You can say, Joe,

Hayden Cohen  10:51 

To the Rabbi.

Alfie Ferguson  10:52 

This is the thing. I don’t have to take somebody’s perspective and say that if you can we all know you can take three different texts, right? And you sit there you study it, you research it, you get your your humash out. Yeah, you go through all the lyrics, whatever and you’re going well, here’s here’s one of the things I remember when going into Jewish spaces and the lyric about I am thankful that I’m not born a slave. Can I tell you how powerful that is? For me? I know it’s powerful for most Jews because of the story of emancipation from Egypt. But for me as a descendant of a slave, do you know how powerful that is? That

Hayden Cohen  11:26 

No I can’t.

Alfie Ferguson  11:27 

Yeah, what I’m telling you, I’m telling you. That’s what I’m here for. I’m telling you how powerful a statement is. I am thankful that I’m not born a slave. I’m thankful to my ancestors who allowed me to not be a born a slave. It’s very, very moving to me. Other things I like is I didn’t realise before I started, how much community there is. Don’t get me wrong, nothing wrong. Sometimes you run into it, and then sometimes you want to run back (laughs) out of it, right? But I didn’t know what this community was about. And I find it comforting. I find it annoying. I find It’s a little bit overwhelming because this community isn’t just based in Britain. It’s not just based at my shul. It’s not just based in Europe, it’s worldwide. You go somewhere and you mentioned you’re Jewish and other people come up to you. And they say hello I’m a Jew too. It’s like a it’s like an automatic little key to other people who have a little key as well just that just opens you up to other people and you’ve got that connection. I could go on I could bore your listeners with and they’d be sitting there going What on earth are you going on about? I can’t, I don’t want to go shul I don’t want to meet anybody. And I’m just like, buzzing about half of this stuff.

Hayden Cohen  12:34 

Right. I mean, is it because you’re not used to it yet? Do you know what I mean?

Alfie Ferguson  12:38 

Yeah, there’s no doubt I’ve heard of it. I’ve been told. The uh what? was what was it?  The zeal of the Convert, is something I’ve often said. We’re just gonna have to wait and see I’m like three, four years in now.

Hayden Cohen  12:49 

Right.

Alfie Ferguson  12:49 

 I don’t know mate have to come see me in seven or eight years, 10 years if we know each other. Have another podcast. Let’s see. I might not go shul. I might not you know, I might not be doing anything.  But at the moment, I’m just talking about where I’m at.

Hayden Cohen  13:01 

Right?

Alfie Ferguson  13:01 

I can’t, I can’t I can’t say anything else. Yeah, I can’t say anything else.

Hayden Cohen  13:07 

It’s gonna get into the other kind of layers of stuff here. I’m aware that you don’t identify as cisgender. Is that correct?

Hayden Cohen  13:14 

I would say, I push non binary, non binary.

Hayden Cohen  13:18 

Non binary. Okay, so I asked two questions. One, what does that mean by non binary? I’m just asking that to be open. So what does that mean in terms of non binary? And how does that interact with your Judaism?

Alfie Ferguson  13:28 

It majorly interacts with my Judaism because everybody knows that Judaism is gendered based. One of the things I wasn’t quite aware of when I started my conversion process. I remember I’m going a little bit off track, but when I was doing my name for my conversion, I couldn’t have the name I wanted because it was male. And I was told I was advised that it wasn’t a good idea, and I should change it because I didn’t realise how important was gendered but you know, everything that you do within Judaism, if you’re from an Orthodox perspective is gendered. I would say I’m now part of Judaism where that it doesn’t matter so much now because that’s important to me. I don’t fit into a typical, you can look at me right now. And you wouldn’t say, Oh, what a lovely looking typical woman. I was born female. But I think I have characteristics of both male and female for definite, I think I would think you would call me a butch looking woman, which is a woman who has definite characteristic traits that are considered to be masculine.

Hayden Cohen  14:22 

So I’ve learnt not to make those assumptions I’ve learned, I’ve learned. And I think that that is fair to say, I’ve learned, you know, over the years, because I’ve met people from a range of backgrounds.

Alfie Ferguson  14:36 

Hayden, I’m really happy that you said that because it’s really important that people know it’s okay to be wrong at the beginning. It’s okay to ask a question. It’s almost like it’s okay to listen to the answer and then to act on it. And that’s fantastic. I judged you very, very quickly. Then I judged you there. And I’ve been slapped down but because you’re saying the right things, you’re doing the right things. Asking is always the best thing because I tell you now you asked five different people. What’s going on? Five people are telling you five different answers and you You must is always about letting the other person lead you to who their identity is. They’ll always they’ll always lead you. And then you just got to go with it. And you obviously have you obviously have and I prejudged you.

Hayden Cohen  15:12 

Well. It’s one of the reasons why I wanted to launch this podcast, right? I just liked hearing from different people. And you know, we’re living in a world now that seems like we getting increasingly divided, and antagonistic.

Alfie Ferguson  15:30 

There’s money behind the media mate. (laughs)  You know, if you can get one stream of people to like one thing and you’re going to show a programmes to set up programmes that go down that line, you’re going to do that. For all the faults that the BBC has, one thing it does, it shows a multitude of different types of viewpoints and that we’re losing that a little bit with the fact we’ve got the internet now. We can watch what we want them to have to watch anything that we don’t like anymore. It is making a little bit more fractured in the world. There’s no doubt

Hayden Cohen  15:52 

Yeah, you’re right. You’re right.

Alfie Ferguson  15:53 

There’s no doubt about it.

Hayden Cohen  15:54 

About about Yeah, so hopefully, I’m just doing the little thing I found so cool.

Alfie Ferguson  15:58 

Of course, of course.

Hayden Cohen  15:59 

So cool. So How’d you get over that then? So in terms of this whole, male/ female paradigm, yeah, that there is

Alfie Ferguson  16:08 

I ignore it and do what the hell I want. It’s very simple. I tend to find that when I’m interacting with other people, they are right for you or they’re wrong for you. And they’ll show you very quickly if they’re wrong for you. And they’ll show you very quickly whether they’re right for you. There was a day when I was much, much younger, where you and I’m sure a lot of your podcast listeners have exactly the same experience. Where you wanted it to be liked by everybody and and to do what everybody else did. Now, I don’t do that. You either like me or you don’t.  If you don’t like` me, I’ll do my thing. I’ll be polite. I’ll say hello, but we won’t go much further I don’t have the energy to spend on those kind of people. And, and, and being honest. On the flip side, they should be spending time with me. If I’m somebody they don’t get on with let’s let’s let’s just call the whole thing off.Hey? Give each other a bit of space and we do our thing. You know, I’ve got some very good friends. You know, I’ve got that base for me. I’m very lucky that the Jewish community that I have, the friends I have, anyway,  I mean, you know, I’m very lucky. I have a good base, I don’t have to put up with people that I don’t like.

Hayden Cohen  17:03 

Right, right. So. So that’s interesting. So would you say that advocacy is not part of what you want to do?

Alfie Ferguson  17:10 

I have to be honest, I think there’s other people who are better than me about advocacy. I think there’s a pa???

Hayden Cohen  17:16 

Why?

Alfie Ferguson  17:16 

I tell you why, because um, I Hayden probably would like to be as somebody who allows other people to speak their stories. I think that would be far more interesting for me. I think advocacy is something that you have to work on a very, very long term vision to get where you want to. I think your networking skills, your communication skills, have to be on point. You need to have a process that you work through. You have to make very good connections. And you know, I’m just a little bod that runs around in the Jewish world. I don’t have a really real connections. I make friends with the people I know, I’m not high level anything. I think when you want to do advocacy, I would want to do advocacy that changed something on a big thing or something like Keshet. I’m more, I’m so impressed by Keshet they’re leading the way I forgotten her name now. I think the name is Dalia. She’s such an inspiration to the Jewish LGBT+ commmunity. It’s not what I would do. It’s not what I would, I would want to know, it’s not. I mean, I hope my little bit of advocacy on this podcast would would help.

Hayden Cohen  18:13 

That’s it.

Alfie Ferguson  18:14 

But that’s as far as I would like to go. I wouldn’t like to be in meetings and having to draw up plans and things like that. Is this not where we’d be like, I’m, I’m spontaneous. I met you five minutes ago. I’m  on your podcast.

Hayden Cohen  18:23 

(Laughs)

Alfie Ferguson  18:23 

That’s, that’s the kind of way I roll. I just I just like (to).

Hayden Cohen  18:26 

(Laughs). I think you roll with it. Advocacy takes multiple forms, and you’re doing a form of it. Why not?

Alfie Ferguson  18:32 

Okay. Extra brownie points for Hayden. I like that. But I still don’t want to do anything. You know, the big stuff is not for me. I don’t have the patience for the long haul, nitty gritty, incremental ways of going forward. I don’t have the patience. What I’m good at is being dropped into a situation and seeing if I can fly this. This podcast may come and bite me. This podcast may be a really good thing for me. I don’t know but that that’s, you know, that’s how I rock and roll. Advocacy, You might be right I might be making I might be doing advocacy with the people that I meet maybe some of the people that listen to this podcast, but if you’re talking about things like Keshet like again, I’m gonna brag about them because they’re fantastic.

Hayden Cohen  19:08 

I’m hopefully getting them on as well.  Yeah

Alfie Ferguson  19:09 

Fantastic.

Hayden Cohen  19:10 

Yeah

Alfie Ferguson  19:10 

That’s just not what I’m interested in, or there’s better people out there than me who can who can do all those things.

Hayden Cohen  19:16 

Right. So So what what’s what’s your driving force? What do you kind of do you think in terms of I want a legacy in this is it or do you be?

Alfie Ferguson  19:25 

Yeah, I mean, do I want a legacy? I think everybody wants a legacy. The legacy will be that was an okay person. And I was a bit of a laugh to be with and not a complete pain in the arse.

Hayden Cohen  19:34 

Why not be a pain in the arse? What’s wrong with that?

Alfie Ferguson  19:36 

I’m be a pain in the arsess about some thing. But I haven’t got anything to be you know, I’m kind of in a good place. I’m Jewish. Like I wanna be. I have good friends, my family all still with me. I have a nephew. I have a sisters. I you know, my life’s kind of okay. I’m at Limmud. I’m at my first Limmud. Am I you know, I’m onI mean, you know on any podcast the podcast. You know, days are good. Days are good. I mean…..

Hayden Cohen  19:57 

 You’re not on any podcast. You’re on The Bagel Podcast, I mean.

Alfie Ferguson  19:59 

You’re right, you’re right. I’m not bigging it up as much as I should.  The Bagel Podcast is the only Jewish podcast that you should be listening to. Thank you very much and endorsed by me.

Hayden Cohen  20:09 

I’m going to package that and then I’ll just

Alfie Ferguson  20:12 

Just loop it, just loop it.

Hayden Cohen  20:14 

(laughs) Great. Thank you so much for your time.

Alfie Ferguson  20:16 

Hayden, thank you very much.

Hayden Cohen  20:18 

Thanks to Alfie Ferguson. And that is the last in our LGBT+ series of Bagel Bites. Tune in next time when we’ll be discussing vegan stuff — a panel recorded at the opening of the Jewish Vegan Center, a discussion about the transition of power with the Jewish Volunteering Network, Talmud for Schmeryls’, Israel talk, lots of different things coming up. Until next time.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai with additional editing by Ronni Bloch

The post Alfie Ferguson – Bagel Bite appeared first on The Bagel Podcast.

Transcript

Hayden Cohen  0:00 

Hello and welcome to The Bagel Bite with me, Hayden Cohen. This is the second in our LGBT interview series. But before we get onto that, I wanted to share a couple of responses from the first LGBT episode. I received an email from one of the subscribers to the newsletter saying the following. ‘How low, sick, and disgusting to associate anything Jewish with these disturbed freaks. They should be ignored, not given any credence. Very shameful of you to entertain them’. I was sad to see that lack of empathy so I responded “And I’m not going to stop. The primary directive of Judaism is to be a Mensch (a good person). You’ve just committed a Chillul Hashem (a crime against G-d). Any G-d who would call anyone a disturbed freak, is a G-d I reject. Thank you for listening.  Suffice to say they unsubscribed from the mailing list, as did one of their friends. If you would like to balance out their hatred and receive notifications of new episodes, a chance to give your input to the show, and begin with a shot at winning some prizes in the very near future, sign up at bagelpodcast.com. Does this mean I’m now exploiting the LGBT community like so many businesses? Well, at least The Bagel logo isn’t a rainbow. Best not to think too much about it. To balance out this hate, an Orthodox Rabbi got in touch with me to say that during Simchat Torah, the festival where we celebrate the annual cycle of the reading of the Torah, every male gets called up for an aaliyah. Let’s not get into the quagmire of why not women? That’s a broigus for another day, but there was an individual in attendance at their shul, their Orthodox shul, who was a transgender man. And this Rabbi gave them an aaliyah because it was the decent thing to do to make the service as inclusive as possible. Even better, our next guest helped to provide the Orthodox religious framework to make this happen. Even if the Chief Rabbi doesn’t allow it… yet. Times are achanging. Rabbi Mike Moskovitz is a true mensch. As an Orthodox rabbi, he advocates for the rights of the transgender Jewish community. And luckily for me, he is both earnest and has a great sense of humour. Hope you enjoy.

Hayden Cohen  2:30 

I suppose what I’d like to know is your story. Right? So, how have you come to be sat here in the finest seat in the world here on The Bagel Podcast?

Mike Moskowitz  2:41 

That’s such a wonderful question. I was just lucky, I suppose. Not everybody can sit in this chair at this moment. It’s been a journey. There’s a way in which for me, it feels very linear that at 17 I came out as Orthodox and was motivated —

Hayden Cohen  2:59 

You love saying that. How many times a day do you do that line?

Mike Moskowitz  3:04 

Because I think there are lessons to learn, that even academics don’t appreciate the Born This Way mentality, right? Because it minimises a lot. But, within the Jewish world, we recognise that there’s tremendous space for growth and evolution. A person can be assigned, not Jewish and say like, I feel Jewish, I really want to be Jewish. We say “Fantastic there’s some paperwork, you go to the mikvah, whatever, we’ll make it happen.” But nobody’s saying, “Well, no, no, you don’t understand, your fixed. You’re born this way. And so like, you have to die that way. It’s just not a Jewish value.” We find this throughout our tradition, that sometimes it could be in a perceived contradiction between the physical and the spiritual, especially here where the day is so short, right? In the winter, it’s like there’s like no daylight. It’s amazing, right? But in the reverse, where like Shabbos could start 10 o’clock at night, and you want to have, so you can take in Shabbos early, right, but the sun’s out, but it’s Shabbos, so how come we’re not saying that? I don’t understand. How he told me that it’s shabbos? I see the sun. We’re not bothered by that. So, I think by talking about You know, being assigned secular coming out as orthodox, right? There’s a way in which it elevates the speech, the language and also lets it be much more relatable that we’re all trying to figure out who we are in relationship with G-d and want to be present in the most authentic and genuine space. So for me, at 17 trying to find meaning and purpose and there’s so much pain and suffering in the world. There’s so much pain and suffering in the world. So why are we all here? And why is it worth it? None of us get out of it alive. And so trying to kind of see that darkness as an invitation to be the light and do something about it put me on the journey in the trajectory to go to yeshiva, I learned in Lake Wood, New Jersey and in Jerusalem for about a decade. And then 20 years later, 37 I was a rabbi at Columbia University. I was the Rabbi of The Old Broadway Synagogue in Harlem.

Hayden Cohen  4:41 

I kind of want to go back a bit, but I feel like you’ve skipped. I’ve had the same conversations in my head, right? In terms of you know, when I was a teenager, and you have probably very similar conversations you had with yourself, right?

Mike Moskowitz  4:58 

Yeah.

Hayden Cohen  4:59 

But I am not here with a black beard and a black hat, right?

Mike Moskowitz  5:02 

Right.

Hayden Cohen  5:03 

Those thoughts could have manifested themselves in a million different ways.

Mike Moskowitz  5:06 

Yeah.

Hayden Cohen  5:07 

Why was becoming frum and orthodox frum, why was that the decision for you?

Hayden Cohen  5:15 

Yeah, that’s a great question. I think the open mindedness to explore it and the willingness to sacrifice the first 17 years. I was supposed to go to college and then go to law school. My father’s a doctor, there was like a very natural progression of what everybody else was doing from just being passive. And I think for me, being able to see that one second, maybe that’s not what I’m supposed to be doing just because everybody else is doing it. I wanted to align myself and affiliate and associate with those who are taking the thing that I thought was the most important the most seriously. And so for me, in that moment, it meant like I need to go to yeshiva and I need to learn it all. I know nothing. And so you know, when I finally got there to yeshiva, not really knowing even all the letters of the Hebrew alphabet, I realised that if I was going to take this seriously, and for me at the moment, it felt like being alive in relationship with G-d and answering this question of what does G-d want from me right now, required access to information that I could not rely on somebody else to be able to provide. And so I decided like, okay, so I’m not gonna go to college, I’m going to go to Yeshiva. And so like I’m signing for four years, and I’m gonna sign it for four years and I need to make a profession out of it, because how can I justify investing so much time in that and so I went —

Hayden Cohen  6:20 

Literally that quick?

Mike Moskowitz  6:22 

In that moment. I’ll tell you where I was. I was in West Virginia. The background is that I was dating a girl in high school who’s not Jewish, a wonderful woman of colour. Some people in my family weren’t thrilled and thought that I should meet some nice Jewish girls and so they set me up to go to USY, the conservative movement youth group, just as a way of dating somebody Jewish and it worked. I met a lovely Jewish girl who is now a woman and happily married. I think still somewhere in that area and at a Shabbaton in West Virginia and USY, she was part of this Abraham Joshua Heschel Honour Society. I wasn’t cool enough to be in it, so there was a moment where I was waiting outside of this thing, she was in there, there was nothing to do or read. There was no such thing as cell phones at the time. But there was a siddur and in the siddur, the Sim Shalom siddur, they had Pirkei Avot, Ethics of the Fathers. And so I started reading it. And it was literally a moment. I was like, “Oh, right! This world’s really broken and we’re supposed to do something about it. And like, that’s why we’re here. We’re here to partner with G-d to make the world better.

Hayden Cohen  7:22 

Why not work for a charity?

Hayden Cohen  7:24 

Yeah. I guess at 17 I was really idealistic. And I was just like, yeah, of course, like “duh!”, like good. So I’m now going to go on a different path and ironically broke up with her because I really you know —

Hayden Cohen  7:36 

She wasn’t frum enough?

Mike Moskowitz  7:37 

She was frum enough? (BOTH LAUGH) That’s exactly right. That’s exactly what happened. She was not thrilled. She was not thrilled.

Hayden Cohen  7:45 

“I found someone else. G-d.”

Mike Moskowitz  7:46 

That’s right. I’m gonna be walking long walks with G-d in the park these days. Candlelight dinners, you know how it is. Friday night. So yeah, and so that was it. And I really like for 20 years when all in, in that world. Doing all the things that you’re supposed to do, had wonderful teachers. It was lonely because culturally, it wasn’t my world. I saw it very much as a means to an end. I didn’t know what I wanted to do with my life after. Did I want to become the head of a yeshiva? Did I want to have a synagogue? Did I want to go into Jewish outreach or to become a rabbi that does education? It wasn’t clear, at all. And I obsessed about it. What should I do? Because if I want to do this, then I should try to study this. And never could have imagined that this is where I was going to end up. But thank G-d, you know, studying the Talmud before I left yeshiva, and really having the privilege to be in the company of amazing people. And then at 37 I felt like the same sensation that I felt at 17 like what am I doing? Why am I here? What does G-d want for me? And I think that same open mindedness allowed me to then like, again, say, okay, so it’s gonna look really different. I don’t know what it’s gonna look like they’re gonna be consequences, but it ended well when I did it at 17. And this will end well because I feel like I’m on a path

Hayden Cohen  8:53 

So what was that change?

Hayden Cohen  8:55 

So I started getting involved in trans advocacy when someone in my own family transitioned. And I had no idea what or how to be supportive. I didn’t know what that meant. Somebody said to me, “I’m not a girl, I’m a boy.” And I said, “Well, I know how I’m a boy. How do you know that you’re a boy? It’s not the same way.” And the person said, “No, I just am.” And, I wanted to be supportive and had no idea how to do it. I reached out to my rabbis, really wonderful people who also were like, “Yeah, I don’t know what to tell you. I’ve never gotten this question before. But it doesn’t sound like you know, like it’s healthy” was basically the approach. I reached out to the Gender Studies Department at Columbia, met a wonderful group of academics and trans-folks and then trans-Jews and then my synagogue started to attract more trans-Jews that knew that it was a safe space and about a year into it I was writing for Keshet, which is in America out of Boston, an LGBT Jewish organization. I was writing under a pseudonym

Hayden Cohen  9:48 

There’s Keshet in the UK as well.

Mike Moskowitz  9:49 

Yeah. I don’t know if their connected or not. But the rainbow and Hebrew was was a popular right.

Hayden Cohen  9:55 

What should I say? Just before you go on, I knew this was coming and that, you know, this is your topic. And just for the listeners basically, and I think there’s a, an acknowledgement that we kind of have to make here, that we are two straight white guys —

Mike Moskowitz  10:15 

Cisgender.

Hayden Cohen  10:16 

Cisgender, talking about this topic. I, as the kind of host acknowledge that there could be a potential, you know, issue without acknowledging it. It is the elephant in the room. But at the same time, we can talk about these things, and anybody else if anybody’s listening to this, who wants to be represented and isn’t, I’m always up for having those interviews and those discussions and I’m open to that 100% and I just don’t want it to feel like it’s two blokes talking about this.

Hayden Cohen  10:48 

Absolutely. It’s awkward.

Hayden Cohen  10:50 

Yeah,

Mike Moskowitz  10:50 

it’s absolutely awkward. And it’s something that I deal with every single day. I’m the Scholar in Residence for Trans and Queer Jewish Studies at the world’s largest LGBT synagogue in New York City, CBST, and I’m not trans nor am I queer. And for me, it feels less awkward to be silent. This is awkward, but it’s less awkward than the awkwardness of being silent because the world’s broken and allyship was predicated on the reality that the world is broken. If we could see each other as equals, then we wouldn’t need to stand up for each other. So, the goal of all of this advocacy work and allyship work, which is how identify, I identify as an ally, is to become as obsolete as quickly as possible. That because of my education and right wing Lithuanian yeshivas, there isn’t a trans-man that could have this position that I have because they’re not allowed in yeshivas. And also women don’t get the education in that world. And so the scholarship piece is the piece that allows me to do this work without that guilt. We’re hosting a conference, the first ever trans-Jewish convening of its type, and it’s all trans-led. And so part of the role of the ally is to amplify the voice so that first person narrative and to give more visibility and more exposure, so I’m so happy that you’re going to have hopefully trans folks on and would very much like to stay in my lane of allyship and the voice of a family member of somebody who’s trans and also the rabbinic voice. And so those are voices that feel very authentic to me. And bringing awareness to these issues with these topics within the Jewish world, I think is really important. And for the trans and gender non-conforming folks who are listening, know that we see you, we love you, we want to hear from you. There is space, G-d does not put extra people in this world, G-d does not make mistakes. And G-d willing, one of you will have my job soon.

Hayden Cohen  12:32 

And I’d also like to say that The Bagel Podcast has no editorial oversight from anyone other than me. And my decision on that is, I just want to hear I want to hear your voice. I want to hear what you have to say. I want to ask what does the Torah say about trans?

Hayden Cohen  12:51 

Beautiful. So what’s really interesting is that I think since the creation of people there hasn’t been a day that was free from the trans experience. The very first person to transition was Adam: was made in the image of G-d and then transitions from being Adam to being Ish V’isha – man and woman.

Hayden Cohen  13:08 

Love it. Absolutely love it.

Mike Moskowitz  13:11 

And that’s true, right?

Hayden Cohen  13:11 

Yeah

Mike Moskowitz  13:12 

Rashi even says the medieval commentator that we see that G-d created this world through the Hebrew language because etymologically the word for men and women ish and isha are related, because physically they’re related that one came from the other. And for me, I understand that as Adam being in the image of G-d, and our tradition, G-d is very gendered in terms of attributes. Our father, our King, and also in the feminine, but G-d doesn’t have a body. So where does gender lie? That’s an important question. I don’t know that we have the answer to it. But if it exists on a soul level, which I think it does, it can give us new opportunities to have conversations about gender based spiritual practice. And also we can recognise that Adam and Eve were kind of the binaries of the poles of masculine and feminine. And we all have blending unique aspects of all the different souls and so for some of us, we feel tension in the way in which our body presents, the way in which we were assigned, and the way in which we’re able to kind of experience gender and for some of us don’t. And for some people, there’s no tension, we transition in all of the different manifestations. But for me, I think that what the Torah says more importantly than that meta question of where gender lies is how we as a community have a responsibility to support individuals to make sure that there’s a safe space.

Hayden Cohen  14:19 

Do you find though that if you say, take the traditional Rabbinic line of things like say, “Go forth and multiply”, right. And that can be an issue and, you know, I would imagine, especially in say, the really Orthodox communities, that can be a serious issue, right? Because that’s kind of the driving force. How are issues like that dealt? How would you deal with those?

Mike Moskowitz  14:44 

It’s a great question. So just to clarify, for the listeners, gender identity and sexual orientation obviously are different. Someone who’s asexual is not free from gender. So if you let’s say you have a trans man marrying a trans woman, right, that still supports a hetero normative space and people can still conceive and in fact, in America now there’s a shift around language away from language of like feminine hygiene products, because there’s some trans men that need them. And so the work that I do is trying to separate out the homophobia and transphobia, from within orthodoxy, because I don’t think that G-d is a misogynist, and I don’t think that G-d is homophobic or transphobic. And, we’re all in a relationship with G-d. And each one of us needs to ask, like, what does G-d want for me? And we each have access to all that information. So for the trans experience to be seen, there needs to be a recognition that men and women are different in some way, or else there’s no space to transition. That being said, there’s a lot in the world, that’s toxic masculinity. That’s patriarchy. That’s not part of our tradition. That’s misogyny. And so we need to separate out the things which are true to gender, and not just the social construction, and it’s tricky —

Hayden Cohen  15:50 

But did you also bring in all the, what seems to be talked about more and more about non gendered and that kind of adds another layer of complexity to it.

Mike Moskowitz  15:59 

Absolutely and you know every Shomnei Eessary every prayer that we offer starts with at least five Gods– My G-d, the G-d of my ancestors G-d of Abraham, the G-d of Isaac and Jacob and some at so there’s a recognition that there’s only one G-d and we’re each at different moments in a different type of relationship for some people their G-d is a gender neutral G-d Of course my G-d’s not gendered. For me personally, my my god is an old gender G-d. And so like that’s up to the individual and I think that there’s like,

Hayden Cohen  16:26 

But is it? so if you open up a siddur, prayer book, anything? It’s He he he he he, talking about God it’s never she’s never it just never them, you know, the pronoun is He.

Hayden Cohen  16:37 

Very often and it certainly speaks to certain aspects of G-d. There are other ones like the shekhinah, which are very feminine when we talk about G-d as the bal haracharyamim, the Merciful One, the word there is the root there’s rechem womb, the one who gave birth, hamakom, the omnipresent which is also the consoling one. macam is a euphemism for the female anatomy right? The Birth of a Nation right is a very feminine Part of the exodus of Egypt which is that you’d see all the going out of its tremendous language of narrowness like the birth canal. So i think that you know, the root of the word Muna faith comes from that word a mother so there again I think there are aspects which are part of our the vengeful wrathful G-d on some level exists so that we don’t have to be vengeful and wrathful because G-d’s gonna take care of it right G-d can be the judge so I don’t have to right and so in that way they’re masculine components but you know, and I think when I first got to you Shiva mine was a do this or burn type G-d and through you know, the last 20 some years mine is a much more compassionate nurturing, forgiving, you know, comforting you’re doing the very best you can type G-d

Hayden Cohen  16:40 

So how, how do you reconcile that so I know Like for example, I’ve I’ve always, well, not always, but recently, I’ve come to this conclusion that if G-d is a homophobic G-d, that is not a god I want to believe in but then I have the freedom to do that. Because I’m not a rabbi. Right? Right. So, so I can I can effectively Say, say what I want, you know, and in fact, there is a session I do called the philosophy of cherry picking about, you know, how and why we choose what we do. But I have that freedom, whereas, you don’t to a certain extent, you know, because when, when you are an orthodox rabbi, there’s a certain list of things they have to seek often, and I’m sure you know, not to put words in, but I’m sure there’s certain things that you have massive difficulties with, but I don’t have to reconcile those in a way because I am a cherry picking Jew, I don’t have to. How do you reconcile those issues?

Hayden Cohen  17:49 

That’s a great question. I think that there’s an objective and absolute truth about G-d, in that either G-d exists or G-d doesn’t exist and certainly not gonna be dependent on my belief, right? So either G-d is homophobic or G-d isn’t. And it doesn’t make a difference how many articles I write or how I reframe it, right how many speeches either G-d is G-d isn’t I don’t believe that G-d is. And I think that

Hayden Cohen  19:03 

Why?

Mike Moskowitz  19:05 

I guess what? We have to define terms there was just an incident in America with a an orthodox lesbian comedian that got thrown out of a.

Hayden Cohen  19:15 

Oh yeah

Hayden Cohen  19:16 

So in response, I

Hayden Cohen  19:18 

Can we just quickly just

Hayden Cohen  19:19 

Yeah, so a wonderful woman, Leah Forster is a comedian and she had booked a venue that had a hasgacha, a rabbinic supervision over the Kashrus. And the allegedly, the Kashrus organisation told the venue that if you allow her to perform here, we’re going to take away your certification,

Hayden Cohen  19:38 

Allegedly or is that been?

Mike Moskowitz  19:40 

I think it’s under investigation.

Hayden Cohen  19:41 

Okay, fine, fine, fine, allegedly. Thank you. I appreciate it.

Hayden Cohen  19:45 

You don’t need

Hayden Cohen  19:46 

(Laughs)

Hayden Cohen  19:47 

And so in response, I pointed out in a speech, that if anything, the Torah is heterophobic, right? The prohibitions that the Torah has, for single, for men and women not to be alone together, lest something happens or even non sexual platonic touch lest something happens, right? We don’t find that. So I think if there are lines that the Torah has drawn to help guide us in a path to be in a healthy relationship with G-d. There’s a different set of lines that humans have drawn to make us feel more comfortable about who we are. Right? And so I think one of the questions that we need to ask and I’m happy to send you the speech, I give examples, right? And there was for example, you know, if you’re willing to say Good Shabbosi s to somebody as they get out of their car Saturday morning, but you’re not willing to, even though their shabbos is is a different shabbos than yours, but you’re not willing to say, Mazel Tov to two men, even though that their marriage is a different marriage. Like why can you say Good Shabbos and not Mazel Tov, there’s a person I must have, even if it’s, it’s, it’s a heteronormative couple, and they’re living together, right? So you have no problem saying Mazel to them, even though maybe she’s not going to the mikvah, or like she’s not doing they’re not doing the things that you would expect in an orthodox space. And that’s our own homophobia. There’s nothing to do with G-d.

Hayden Cohen  20:50 

Right.

Mike Moskowitz  20:51 

So I think

Hayden Cohen  20:52 

Because, Is it like, Is there a priority list? Is there an order of mitzvot of good deeds? Is there a hierarchy? a Top Trumps?

Hayden Cohen  21:01 

So, what’s interesting is that, you know, the Talmud often asks, you know, so if you have to distill it down to like one mitzvah, what’s the mitzvah? Right? And there’s all these different conversations, allowing people like not being a jerk is essentially what it all boils down to it right? Don’t be a jerk. So whether it’s in the positive, it’s in the negative, you know, we all do the very best we can and everybody struggles in different ways. For some people, who are gay, what they think that that verse says to them, and the space that they exist in, is one of the struggle for celibacy that for them feels like the holiest place. And they wouldn’t want someone to come along and say, You know what, no, it’s all good. You can do whatever you want. Because for them, their identity is walking with G-d as in that space of tension for other people with the exact same verse, right interpreted sin, you know, that’s it’s framed in a heteronormative space that if a guy is normally with men, he should also be with women, right? Because it’s not cool to misrepresent himself. And there are others that do other things to the verses and other people have different traditions of what it means

Hayden Cohen  21:56 

Because as a rabbi is a part of you that kind Have wishes that more people would obsess about other phrases as much as they obsess about that one?

Hayden Cohen  22:08 

Yes. And I think that one of the great examples is about speaking lashon hara, not speaking bad, you know? So right there 36 different….

Hayden Cohen  22:16 

However fun It might be. (Laughs)

Mike Moskowitz  22:19 

(Laughs )So in America and might have even made it here there was an organisation was called the Chofetz Chaim Heritage Foundation and they had this initiative, to take one hour a day and not speak badly. And I remember growing up people be like, Oh, no, you gotta save it. This is my hour and it’s just so strange. So we used to joke you know, that better

Hayden Cohen  22:20 

That’s a serious thing.

Mike Moskowitz  22:34 

that’s a serious thing

Hayden Cohen  22:36 

So, everyone was that horrible about everybody else. They even one hour (Laughs)

Mike Moskowitz  22:38 

was a struggle. and then people would take an hour, you know, my hours gonna be like three to four in the morning, right? So we used to joke better to take one hour, Right? My, my initiatives gonna be 23 times better. I’m gonna take one hour I’m gonna speak all the lashon hara and then for the other 23, I’m going to be a Tzaddik, right? So we can joke about it right? Because we all do it. Right? So what feel embarrassed about speaking badly because we all speak lashon hara. But could you imagine if a person had a sweatshirt that said no, this is my hour not to have gay sex, right? Like you couldn’t do that. But what I don’t understand this is one this is 36 Okay, but this is what I do and I don’t like to feel bad and we can’t say that you can do it for one hour because you’re not supposed to. So there are a lot of examples where we have you know, it’s not new Abraham he

Hayden Cohen  23:21 

reminded me of one. I was in in shul on  Rosh Hashanah, the synagogue for Rosh Hashanah. And and the rabbi did this sermon, about when you’re one step family member dies that you’re not bound by the laws of Halacha. So, and I know, it’s all about positive comments, all the negative, but I did I did joke to my mum on the way out I went in the 50 and 100 years when you pass and I will be beyond sad. I’ve heard pork crackling is rather nice. She wasn’t impressed. I

Hayden Cohen  23:50 

Wasn’t impressed. Yeah, yeah, I get that. So, yes, you know, we all look for opportunities to fulfill things that we feel constricted. Because in our relationship with G-d, there’s an ask G-d has expectations. And sometimes they’re difficult. But if we really want people to be in an authentic and genuine relationship with G-d, we need to give people the space to make those those choices. But this struggle of like justif, justifying the lines that we draw, and we all draw lines is not new. Abraham tells Sarah, when he’s going to go to the king. Tell them that you’re my sister, because if we tell them that you’re my wife, they’re gonna kill you. They’ll kill me. So it’s very strange that they were particular about adultery, but they weren’t particular about murder. Right? So those are like some squiggly lines. And they also just said it in the name of G-d that no, how could you not tell us? We’re holy people, right there holy people who are going to kill right and we’re not to commit adultery. So that’s part of the human experience. We all draw lines?Right? And so I think naming the fact that we’ve made homophobia and not G-d, that’s a social construction. Are you afraid I work in the world’s largest LGBT synagogue, it’s a queer space, there’s a glitter in my beard periodically doesn’t come out very easily. It’s an amazing group of people and it’s a mixture between queer and straight folks. But I’m surrounded by queer people all day. I am as straight now as I was in high school, and it’s just not something that we need to be afraid of people are who they are. And they get to choose what they want to do with that. And that’s something that we need to respect.

Hayden Cohen  25:14 

So are you are you part of any sect or part of you? And it’s kind of follow on from that? How do your rabbinic colleagues react to your chosen focus at the moment?

Mike Moskowitz  25:31 

It’s a great question. So I identify as Yeshivish, meaning that I feel that that group of people most naturally aligned in the way in which I see the world in terms of the the devotion to learning into spiritual practice. I think it’s a little too inwardly focused, and is it a little more focused in spreading that light to the universe. There’s a mixture of people who are really in opposition, particularly.  There are some who are very much not in opposition. I like (Laughs)

Hayden Cohen  26:03 

(Laughs) Chicken, I’m calling you out.

Hayden Cohen  26:05 

Okay, So, it’s interesting how like, who feels so motivated? There’s a term in America the alt-right. So the alt-ight is not a big fan of me. They call me, you know, fake orthodox and fake Rabbi and these things. Within Mainstream Centrist Orthodoxy,

Hayden Cohen  26:24 

I think you should get t shirts. Get a badge. That’s a badge of honour.

Hayden Cohen  26:27 

No, it’s true. You know, somebody from the Orthodox Union wrote, I don’t know that he was representing the Orthodox Union when He did this but somebody who’s affiliated with it, wrote an article against me and some other fine Jews, Seth Farber, and Dasi Fruchter and some wonderful people, and said that I advocate for cross dressing in sames in illicit relationships. Now, anyone who’s familiar with any of us knows that like wearing misgendered clothing exists independent of any sort of relationship, illicit or others and gender identities. So, it becomes a way to have a national So I gave a speech after and it got out there on the Facebook world and the internet but naming that you can’t answer a question. So you know the reality and so like if you’ve never met a trans person, right, you don’t understand how these things are two separate tracks. Right? So then you’re just showing your ignorance in the opposition. Within Mainstream Centrist Orthodoxy, I think everybody acknowledges that the rabbis have been horrifically negligent. Like on a malpractice level, the standard response to a guy who comes to his rebbe says, Rebbe, you don’t understand like I’m attracted to men I’m not attracted to women. So their standard response is ‘Okay, so you marry a really pretty woman and then like, you’ll see it’ll be okay’. It doesn’t work that way.

Hayden Cohen  27:36 

Isn’t it beyond that though? So i’m not i’m not i’m not sure whether it’s kind of an anti trans thing. It’s more of, this is what we see an idyllic family to be.

Mike Moskowitz  27:48 

 Right.

Hayden Cohen  27:49 

And I think even beyond thatanother even beyond, it’s issues with couples have struggled to have kids it’s it’s it’s issues with it, then it was decided to have kids it’s it’s issues with She’s of colour and if you

Hayden Cohen  28:01 

look right, right, able bodied people, right, right.

Hayden Cohen  28:04 

Yeah. Anything beyond that and have rant about intersexuality that are that is also problematic. So intersexuality, just in one sentence is the idea that if you support one thing, you support all the rest. There are issues with that, but it kind of does.

Hayden Cohen  28:20 

Yeah, there’s a way in which yeshivas really cater to like that top 1%. Like the goal, is really to try to produce the best Rabbi and rabbinic leader. And so that looks like in that world, like something very, very, very, very specific.

Hayden Cohen  28:35 

I’m still fasc…. I know. We covered it, but I’m still fascinated by this idea that, yeshiva is designed to make people think in a certain way. So it is, I think, I think yeshivas will be quite open about that. And you’ve accepted that to a degree, because you know, you’re here now with a beard and a hat and ya know. But then you’ve also, rejected part of that idea as well, in terms of you’ve gone Well, the logic that you’ve espoused here doesn’t prevent me from advocating for trans rights.

Hayden Cohen  29:04 

That’s correct.  In fact, for me, motivates me. Right other words, that same mentality. So

Hayden Cohen  29:09 

how many others are there like you?

Mike Moskowitz  29:11 

I think they’re all in the closet. (Laughs)

Hayden Cohen  29:15 

(Laughs)

Mike Moskowitz  29:16 

Yes, but it’s true. So I guess this is what, I’ll try to give this better language. (sighs).  When we talk about systems of oppression, there’s a way in which Judaism sees equality as liberation, especially for those who are accustomed to discrimination. To Say this differently. Yeah, for those who are accustomed to discrimination, equality feels like liberation. There is a huge space. And it really is a power dynamic, that the yeshiva world hoards, all sorts of assets in terms of knowledge, in terms of access, in terms of power, right, it’s a theocracy. It’s a top down model. And so, there’s a way in which especially after World War II, from those ashes, there was a fear, how are we ever going to rebuild?  And so we’re not going to be a light unto the nations, we’re not even going to be light unto the neighbourhood, right? That’s next to us. We’re going to like hoard it, and we’re going to focus and we’re going to hermetically seal it, and we’re going to prevent– It’s like we push pause, like 1880 was a good year. And we push pause. And we want to get back to that space. It’s reactionary, as so much of religion is. It’s why we don’t study prophets or Hebrew grammar because of the enlightenment. And so, at the intersection of tradition and innovation, is a lot of tension. If you change the rules too much, it’s a different game.  If you don’t adapt, no one’s gonna show up to play. And so, and this is the struggle that most movements have to varying degrees. Right? If you’re on the far left.  So the far right, drew these lines with Sharpies. Big thick, Sharpies, and you can’t move them. The far left doesn’t have them. Right? So like today, there’s a new thing. Okay. So good. Fantastic. It’s all good. And it floats and it goes out and there’s no tension.

Hayden Cohen  30:53 

Oh, I’m not sure. I agree. I think I think that the far left can be quite intolerant actually.

Hayden Cohen  30:59 

It can be very intolerant, but I don’t think it struggles with the intersection of tradition and innovation.

Hayden Cohen  31:04 

Hey, is that is that true?

Hayden Cohen  31:04 

Okay, Fine.

Mike Moskowitz  31:04 

We innovate all the we want.  I mean because, we don’t feel bound for them. Meaning if you think of like the Reform Movement, the way it was originally about taking off, like you weren’t allowed to wear tallit or tefillin, like you needed to eat pork, right. There was no tension there. There was a like a jettison, you know, so because

Mike Moskowitz  31:11 

I mean (Laughs)

Hayden Cohen  31:16 

(Laughs) I feel like that’s the Orthodox Rabbi coming out.

Hayden Cohen  31:26 

Well, some of my best friends are reform rabbis.

Hayden Cohen  31:28 

(Laughs)

Mike Moskowitz  31:28 

Right. So but then the conservative movement, I think, struggles with this actually, because of that space of wanting it both ways. There’s some squiggly lines, right? They’ve redrawn lines around marriage–between people the same gender, but they haven’t redrawn those lines around the intermarriage. Right? And if you if you want to have a posture of egalitarianism, so then how are you still holding by patrilineal, you know, matrilineal descent, if men or women are exactly the same with it. So like it’s all I’m saying is it’s not a judgment, it’s just a squiggly.  In that space, in particular, they’re squiggly. So the far right drew the really permanent ones, the far left, maybe they’re in pencil, whatever that is, and in the middle there squigglies They’re actually like, in tremendous tension often.

Hayden Cohen  31:53 

Oh, Tell me about it.

Mike Moskowitz  32:04 

Right. And that’s, it’s a tricky place to be, you know, and because the world is changing so quickly, those bigger ships cannot steer fast enough to keep up until you have all of this kind of autonomous pop up things, you know, lab shoul, and other things that are. The other thing is that we’re acknowledging and observing a lot of blending of things that never went together. There’s queer Talmud, there’s queer mix of other things that never met. And so for me, I think, pressing the pause button, so it says, so it’s play is really just applying that tradition and that rabbinic methodology and sources to a typography that hasn’t yet been acknowledged. So I think we’re meant to live in present tense, I think that if we want the term to be alive, we need to allow it to have language to speak to the questions of today. So if you don’t acknowledge the trans experience, so then you don’t need to ask a new question because of course, we don’t have gay people here. Of course not. And if they are, then they’ll pray it away. Where those the reincarnation, and they’re meant to suffer whatever that is. But if you live in the world outside of the shuttle there, and you see what what the second, you know, a third of the people who have left ultra orthodox identifies LGBT. So really? Yeah, in America. Wow. Yeah. And so like, do we want a LGBT free space or not? We really want to purge orthodoxy from all those people who aren’t straight and cisgender. So if the answer is no, of course not. We want all the Jews to feel welcome. So then how do you make all the Jews feel welcome when you say that you’re actually not as right, in an equal way? So I think for me to answer the question. It’s not about changing the tirat in any level, but it’s really giving it voice to answer the question in present tense.

Hayden Cohen  33:44 

Wow. I feel very considered. Yeah,

Hayden Cohen  33:48 

Sorry for the pause before.

Hayden Cohen  33:49 

No, no, no.  It’s just it’s I suppose it was on a kind of logistical level. Do you conduct marriage ceremonies?

Hayden Cohen  34:01 

Some of the practical logistical questions– Right, a lot of the work for me is in minimizing whatever is at stake in answering the trans experience. So let’s say for example, you have a trans man getting into Leo. So the person presents as masculine they sit on the men’s side of the mechitza, they were assigned female. So, without having to answer the meta question of this halacha, see this person and at what point in the transition, because I don’t think that’s the right question to ask because when they were just substituting the social construction of gender with the construction and the gender non conforming spaces growing and fewer people are having surgeries, and for some people, that transition is just a haircut or just a name change, or just a wardrobe change, or some you know, and some for people’s hormones and some people surgery, some surgeries, not others. And so one of the things that I learned really early on in this is that there’s no trans community, like there’s no Jewish community, we have a bunch of different Jews and everybody does their own thing. And I think that there are a lot of lessons that we the cisgender community can learn from the trans community that doesn’t really exist. In that if we would take our religious identity as seriously as constantly checking in as folks to with their gender identity, we wouldn’t have a simulation, we wouldn’t have the apathy. And we’d all know exactly who we are in the moment. Whether we’re cherry picking or not, we’d be really conscious and deliberate about it. The role of the rabbi, I think, is to help facilitate a healthy relationship with G-d. And when the rabbi takes up too much space, it’s just crowded, right? Any space, really, the role that I have is to really empower individuals and give them the access to the information so that they in the moment can answer the question. So if a person says rabbi, understand, I can’t live like this. G-d forbid, we should tell them that they have to die for it. And those questions are real. I mean, Now in Lakewood I’m sure we were popular for all the wrong reasons in the news, right? Measles and vaccines, the number that’s being thrown out is that if there’s a one in 1000 chance that something is fatal, that’s called Co Op. nefesh. G-d forbid, within the trans community among those who are not supported, it’s almost one in two, it’s around 41% attempt suicide. So that’s another example of like a social construction of well for measles, we care if it’s one in the thousand, but if the A person who’s trans even wanting to like it’s not my problem,

Hayden Cohen  36:03 

I suppose that like, I’ve had this conversation with our In fact, I won’t give any more information as to who it was. But But that was a line that you hear a lot, which is ‘You don’t believe that people choose’. And why would you choose to be trans? And I just wondered ? I don’t see it as a choice? It’s just they are. I just didn’t know how to respond. I didn’t know how to kind of.  Because for, for me, it’s like, well, it’s weird. It’s not something that I think about in terms of what right do I have to tell somebody? They’re not who they think they are? Well, who the hell am I, Right? I suppose I feel like I’m not asking a question, but then I’m going to go on with a question that is what should someone like me do? Who I’m not not an ally, but I’m passive,

Hayden Cohen  36:52 

Right? It’s a wonderful question. I So appreciate being invited to share thoughts on it. It’s always easier to align with the one who’s being oppressed, than it is to be opposition to the presser. So for example, on a subway, you hear somebody getting up and preaching about the things, at least in New York City get preached about often. And the really inclusive, people who think about this all the time, have a very clear kind of set of guidelines that it’s rarely successful to go up against the person because you don’t know who they are in a lot of things but to go into make eye contact with a person who you feel might be suffering, right if it’s a person of colour, and that’s what the rants about or somebody who’s Muslim to say like I’m not okay with this Are you okay with this? And really to try to provide a safe space that you’re not alone in this and I want to also help validate your truth here because like, this is not okay. I’m not okay with this. This guy’s a nutball. Let’s see that in a synagogue context. Right so the rabbi just gives us you know, speech about earthquakes and tsunamis because of you know, what happens at the Pride Parade Right, which is what people talk about sometimes. So to say like, that was super stupid, Right? We’ve got scientists and nobody’s done studies to figure out how many gay people walked holding hands visa v the number of earthquakes This is just stupid made up stuff right because that fear factor you know, sells tickets. And the other thing is that, creating strength in numbers, that you might be by yourself a voice where you don’t feel strong enough, Right? to go in there, like in that context. But my guess is that in your synagogues, there’s probably a decent percentage of people who are in the same space of like, they wouldn’t be the one, but maybe with nine other friends, they might be willing to create a space.

Hayden Cohen  38:16 

So basically what you’re saying is ‘Gang up on the rabbi?

Mike Moskowitz  38:18 

Absolutely

Hayden Cohen  38:19 

Look, I mean,

Hayden Cohen  38:20 

(Laughs)

Mike Moskowitz  38:20 

You know, I’ve gotten fired like, it happens to me not because I’m a majority of people, already people. So I think there’s strength in that way, but Gay Straight alliances, I think a really important one way that I think about this, and I wrote about this, I read often and published, I have a website, rabbimikemoskowitz.com. There is a resource section. So I wrote an article there, why I’m marching as an orthodox Rabbi with pride. So I grew up in Richmond, Virginia, which is the capital that was the capital the Confederacy. And so, there’s another Pride March where I come from and now, it’s not just in the south. And, when people who have more power than average and want more…

Hayden Cohen  38:55 

This might be an American thing that I don’t know of. What is it like white pride?

Hayden Cohen  38:58 

White pride, white power.

Hayden Cohen  38:59 

Whoa

Mike Moskowitz  38:59 

And Growing up in the South, so we had racists and the KKK, but you couldn’t be out, as that. Because society was like not okay with you, you had to wear a hood. And now you don’t need to wear a hood anymore You can leave your kkk hood at home, and go with a tiki torch in your khakis and looking all American and like in a new hipster type way minus the beard. So, there’s been a massive shift. When we think about segregated spaces. I think the determining factor is whether or not we’re we’re segregating for equality, or for inequality. So if you want to have you know, let’s say a black caucus, Right? But the goal is for equality if you want to have a straight only space, but there is it an alliance to create equality. So I think those things are really good. When people who have more power, and they want more. So I think that’s what we find the orthodoxy I mean, I think that’s where, you know, there’s this fear of, you know, this makes us uncomfortable. So the people who have access to everywhere are saying, ‘Hey, you know, we don’t really want to have to build a ramp for a wheelchair, like it makes us uncomfortable’. Like we don’t want to see this. And when we talk about and I mean, this has happened to me where the rabbi has said to me Listen, having a transperson here. makes people uncomfortable. So people are the people who don’t have to worry about having spaces where they’re not allowed access.

Hayden Cohen  40:06 

Do you know what I do when they say that? I go, Who? How many? Oh, Loads of people.  How many? Two? Three? Four?

Hayden Cohen  40:12 

Yeah, absolutely. And so I think that, when we talk about systems of oppression, that we need to recognise that, that Judaism and religion in general has so much power, that not using it for good, I think, is itself a sin. I mean, in America, in particular, during the Civil Rights Movement, churches, black churches, in particular, were massive instruments of social change. And so, if you have a rabbi who is willing to be political, but he’s on the wrong side of it, right, so I think that like, it’s really fair to name that, and to perhaps to critical actively listen. I was at a meal today and the discussion was whether or not the rabbi would be allowed to come to Limmud, right? And so the woman said, if we ask incoming rabbis would you go, if they say no, they’re not going to be a rabbi. So I think that, there’s power for people where that doesn’t ask of them to be The Voice.

Hayden Cohen  40:57 

Right. Interesting. I like that. I did notice that you a little bit skirted around the reaction of other rabbis.

Hayden Cohen  41:06 

I think I can I can redress it. Um, there are people who absolutely think that I’ve been possessed. Like there’s a there’s a relatively famous Rabbi in America who says that I’ve been possessed. That’s the answer to this.

Hayden Cohen  41:20 

Has that been published?

Mike Moskowitz  41:21 

No. (Laughs)

Hayden Cohen  41:22 

Oh Fine, fine.

Mike Moskowitz  41:29 

He told a good friend of mine that I’ve been possessed, like, that’s the answer. Like, how do you explain this? And he’s possessed.

Hayden Cohen  41:33 

I’ve got such a good idea who it is. I’m probably right.

Mike Moskowitz  41:37 

(Laughs) I’ll tell you after.

Hayden Cohen  41:38 

I look forward to it.

Hayden Cohen  41:39 

There are those, who have said to me things like, Look, I’m not happy with what you’re doing. But for the people that you’re doing it for him really, I feel that, they’re lucky to have you doing this

Hayden Cohen  41:47 

That’s a really interesting way around.

Hayden Cohen  41:49 

And I think that that’s a space that a lot of people are in because they recognise that there aren’t people publicly doing this.

Hayden Cohen  41:54 

Right.

Mike Moskowitz  41:54 

And because the rabbinate has taken such a wrong, such the wrong approach to this. The Rabbinical Council of America right now doesn’t have policies about conversions for trans folks– which is really it’s legitimately complicated. Let’s say you have a trans woman who did not have bottom surgery and isn’t circumcised. So and that wants to convert to Judaism. Right. So is that body part specific? Is that gender specific? How do we hold gender based spiritual practice, like the real consequences of Jewish identity, the stakes there are really high obviously. The RCA, the Rabbinical Council of America, which is a mainstreamish, two largest group of Orthodox rabbis. I’ve been told by the head of it, that about half of them are in some ways supportive and the other half are not position. They don’t make public statements, because if they’re quiet, nobody’s going to leave but if they make a statement and support, but I think that for the most part, they’re good people, and they want to do the right thing, and they’re not necessarily there yet. There’s a huge age gap, in terms of the way in which excuse for being supportive in opposition, obviously, the younger rabbis, for the most part, all know people. Because there are trans people everywhere, whether you know about it or not. And the older ones, I think just the way in which this always works is that way. So, there are rabbis who won’t return my calls, who I am no longer consider them to be like in relationship. There are some that are fascinated by all of this and like want to hear. So what did you hear this week? And there’s a way in which it’s kind of a cerebral curiosity that almost borders on voyeurism in a way that’s not healthy. Just to say this, you know, nobody’s life is ever hypothetical. And very often, rabbis, by the very nature of the conversation, speak about things like well be if there was a person who and there is that person, right. And so part of I think my contribution to these conversations with other rabbis is to reiterate that like nobody’s life is hypothetical. So you’re talking about these people, but this isn’t these people. It’s Yanky, it’s Ruchel. Like these are human beings, children of G-d. And if you want to have a relationship with G-d, as a parent, like we need to see all of G-d’s children as our siblings. And I think we’re having to be reminded about that, like often, you know, and I mean, I wrote a different article about abortion. As a rule, Judaism is definitely pro-life, but sometimes, it obligates an abortion. And if we want women to have access, than we need to be pro-choice. I’ll be on the other pieces. And so, I was at a conference at Berkeley and I was presenting on how to kind of advance these type of ideas in very conservative spaces. And I think the most important thing, is to make it personal, right? If Ruchel needs an abortion, that’s different than what happens if a woman right. And so I think that the more trans folks that rabbis can meet, the more the rabbis are going to be in a better position. And it’s hard and it’s awkward to ask those who are already oppressed and marginalised to like, dig deeper and to stand up. But I think that’s the role that the rest of us have is to be creating a safe space for those voices in the stories to be told.

Hayden Cohen  44:36 

All I could do is listen to the bagel podcast. We’ll have more people on there. That’s right. So actually, yeah, I’m being a bit flippant, but at the same time being serious, right? This is an opportunity where if you aren’t open to those voices, here’s a place to hear them in one place.

Hayden Cohen  44:49 

Yes. No, it’s not a small thing. So you’re trans or gender non conforming, what’s the best way for them to reach out to you

Hayden Cohen  44:55 

Oi@bagel podcast.com. The door is always open.

Mike Moskowitz  44:59 

Fantastic.

Hayden Cohen  45:00 

One last question. And you might not want (trails off). Yeah, we’ll see. What do your family think?

Mike Moskowitz  45:06 

It’s complicated is the short of it. There are those that are supportive. There are those that

Hayden Cohen  45:13 

Most of them are conservative Masorti.

Mike Moskowitz  45:16 

It’s a mixture. My family’s mixed. Some are observant, some aren’t. The ones that are observant, get hassled relatively frequently. ‘What is he doing?’ and ‘Can’t you tell him’. Like, I’ve been called a total molester. All sorts of weird things.

Hayden Cohen  45:30 

Again, again, badges, badges,

Mike Moskowitz  45:32 

Badges, right. And the response that This is really important holy work. And also, I think that there’s like there’s a relatively short window that has an expiration date that five years from now, this is not going to be novel. Five years from now, like, I’m not going to be on the fringe. This I think will be part of mainstream and dominant culture,

Hayden Cohen  45:48 

Even within Orthodox Judaism?

Mike Moskowitz  45:50 

Yeah. I mean, I think that like, the further you get, but the systems of deterrence even like in the Haredi, in the Hasidic world, right, like their smartphones now, right? You have 13 kids. It’s rare that all 13 stay in the fold because getting married really young, not learning English, not going to college, you know, having babies really quickly– like those things kept people in. But now everybody’s got a sister or a brother or sibling, that’s on the outside. To try to keep people in, as opposed to try to create a environment that wants to attract people to be there.  It’s just not working in the same way. And people have access to information. And so these things are really complicated. And, like my family, has people that are ultra, ultra, ultra orthodox and completely secular and we’re gay and straight and all the things and trans.  One person, you know, is able to really influence many, and I think it’s just a matter of time. I mean, I can tell you from my own experiences as a Rabbi. The baseline, certainly within the LGB community of Orthodox, Mainstream Orthodoxy has shifted and even in the yeshivish circles it’s shifted. The baseline was like you had to move out. And now, more and more people are even open to having their children and their partners come for Shabbos. Probably the most common question I get, from parents about you know, lesbian daughters is,  ‘You know, my daughter went off to seminary going off to college and now she’s gay and has a girlfriend so the follow up questions are really interesting like, ‘Is she gonna get a haircut?’, ‘Do I have to buy flannel?’. Like what is all like all the stereotypical stuff mean? But the question is like– She now wants to bring her girlfriend for Shabbos. So, what’s going to be? Can I do this? Am I allowed to? Do we have to sleep in different rooms? Where I can tell the siblings? What about other things? So the response I have is really consistent, like you know, ‘Is she still Shomer Shabbos?’.  I will say Yeah, of course. So it’s not a given. So I said Listen, you have a choice you know, either you can have a lesbian daughter that’s Shomer Shabbos or you can have a lesbian daughter that’s not Shomer Shabbos. Right so like the question is always now what? Like what is the win look like? And if you want to have a relationship with your kid then like you need to recognise who your kid is. And I think more and more ,even in the Haredi spaces, parents are just– They already had one that like intermarried, or they had one that’s no longer Shomer Shabbos, and like another one wants to Shomer Shabbos and is like you know, raise a family and all the things that just happens to be they like this person, and not that this person. Like I think more and more and then we’ll see what happens over time, if they start going to the ceremonies and all the things. But you know, I think this moves in one direction. I think it’s moving really quickly and you know, without having to change anything that’s part of our tradition of what the theory says or how we understand that I think what we need to change is how we how we treat people.

Hayden Cohen  48:07 

What a perfect way to finish.  Rabbi Mike Moskowitz,  Thank you so much for your time.

Mike Moskowitz 48:13 

Thank you so much for having me.

Hayden Cohen  48:14 

It has been a pleasure.

Mike Moskowitz  48:17 

It’s a distinct pleasure. And I so appreciate the invitation. And for folks in the LGBT community– Reach out, have your voice heard.

Hayden Cohen  48:23 

Thank you very much. Thank you.

Mike Moskowitz  48:24 

Thank you. Good times, man.

Hayden Cohen  48:27 

And that’s that, thanks again to Rabbi Moskovitz. Tune in next week for the final LGBT Bagel Bite with Alfie Ferguson. They’re not an advocate or someone with something to sell– Just a person from the Jewish community living their life. Until next time, have a great week.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai with additional editing by Ronni Bloch

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00:00 – Introduction Join Hayden as he introduces everything (and definitely doesn’t mention bagels)

02:10 – What Israeli Going On? Gilad Halpern provides the final bit of election analysis (at least until the next one)

09:56 – Talmud for Schmeryls Rabbi Harvey Belovski explains why the Talmud wants us to lean.

14:57 – Cooking with Denise Denise Philips shares her Pesach tips.

19:38 – GIFT Jewish Food Bank  I visited Jewish food bank GIFT and spoke with their founder Michelle Barnett

24:12 – Matza Brei-gus I discover a new piece of Passover mishnah and am then joined for the Matza Breigus by by Rabbi Debbie Young-Somers from Reform UK, Sephardi Rabbi Jeff Berger and United Synagogue Member Amanda Bookatz.

This episode’s image is of GIFT Headquarters in Hendon with additional music supplied by Incompetech.

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Transcript

Hayden Cohen: Hello and welcome to the Bagel Bite. I'm Hayden Cohen and for this Bite I present an interview with the outgoing chief exec of UJIA Michael Wegier. UJIA or the United Jewish Israel appeal is a multi-million pound charity that is THE educational charity for the UK Jewish community. We chat about birthright, crisis mode, Israeli projects that work with both Jews and Arabs together, how to be a great fundraiser, how to be a great chief exec, Zionism, challenges to Jewish charities and the plethora of Jewish charities that UJIA support. As ever if you're enjoying the bagel, please do share it around, sign up to the mailing list, strike up a conversation on Twitter, Facebook, with each other or even on your smart speaker of choice. If every listener tells two of their friends then there'll be two more chevra listening and that's why I'm known for my great Maths skills. Anyway your support is not only greatly appreciated, but goes a long way to ensuring the longevity of the show. Also if you have any suggested features or have something you want to share, email oy@bagelpodcast.com. Right pressing play…. now.
 
HC: So I'm joined by Michael Wegier who is the Chief Exec of UJIA. Although to be fair, when this goes out you may not be at that point because you're coming to the-
 
Michael Wegier: Well that sounds terrible, but yes, you are correct. I will be ending my tenure at the end of February.
 
HC: But my way was more misleading.
 
MW: It's true. It's true.
 
HC: Maybe and I apologise for the number of listeners that do know what UJIA does, but I do find that it's one of these organisations that the majority of the community in the UK has heard of, but they might not necessarily know what it does. So how about we start with that?
 
MW: Sure. So UJIA is Britain's largest Israel charity and Israel is the glue that binds us together and we engage with Israel into different but overlapping ways. Firstly, we support a wide range of Educational and employment related and community regeneration related projects in Israel, focused mostly in the Galilee in the North, and secondly we are responsible for engaging thousands of British Jews with Israel as a key component of their Jewish identity and those we do both in the UK and also by sending young people to Israel and all sorts of Educational programs, short term and long-term.
 
HC: There is the weird intersection, isn't there, in terms of UJIA and all the various youth movements who have their own ideology and Mission statements and this type of thing and then does UJIA fit in with that or do those organisations have to fit in with UJIA?
 
MW: By and large we really welcome the fact that the youth movements represent a very wide range of religious and political views. We ourselves are a non political charity. We don't take a position, but we support movements ranging from Habonim more to the left, to Bnei Akiva more to the centre right to much more Orthodox movements like Ezra. So we are not trying to make those movements like each other or distorted dilute their ideologies, but we welcome the fact that there is a broad tent in this community and we want to underpin that by both financial support and wide range of consultative services.
 
HC: You may not want to answer this when, but I feels like that tent is getting broader, but I know the last summer, summer 2018 was a bit fraught, particularly birthright. So do you want to provide a little bit of context for those listeners that I don't know what happened?
 
MW: Sure. Well Birthright itself was not. very problematic for us in the UK. It might it might be in the future. I can't predict, but it was a very big story in the United States. What happened in the UK, was some young people who are involved in an organisation called 'Na'amod', which is moulded on an American organisation called 'If not now' came to Heathrow Airport when a group was going on birthright and they sort of handed out some leaflets and information to people going on birthright saying they should question what they're told on Birthright, particularly with regard to Israel treatment of Palestinians and UJIA's view was it's a free country, they are entitled their opinions and we had no problem with it. What happened in the United States on a couple of occasions now, is people have gone on Birthright and left the bus in protest of what they were being told. As of January 1 2019 that's not happened to a UK bus and that's situation, so that itself is not very problematic. I'm entirely comfortable with people who protest quietly and responsibly there's no issue.
 
HC: As I don't like to presume anything, Birthright is a free trip for young people and that age changes every so often.
 
MW: That's correct. It does change often. Right now in the UK, most people who go on Birthright are aged between 19 and 26. There have been a couple of pilot groups of people who are a bit older than that, but most people who go are aged 19-26. Of course someone is paying. It's free to the user and the money is being paid through a combination of the generosity of the UJIA's donors and, the Israeli government and some large international Jewish philanthropies. It's a three-way funding relationship. But the UJIA is the UK funding partner of Birthright.
 
HC: I am a past participant of Birthright. I've done that myself. It's interesting actually, because when I went on Birthright I thought it was handled pretty carefully in terms of showing both sides of that debate but that could be my perception. I might come from a very different background and experience from other people that went on it/ I thought it was handled quite delicately.
 
MW: I think most tour guides do handle it pretty well and I've observed and run Birthright programs from Israel in a previous life and I have been observing Birthright since it first began and in my experience the vast majority of Birthright tour guides understand their educational role very well and are really careful to present a multiplicity of views to young people. However this is a project that comes from Israel. It has an Israeli perspective. It's not trying to be anything else.
 
HC: Why is that an issue? It's something that I find fascinating. As somebody who is Jewish, is it not natural that your bias is going to be towards other people of that same community and you just acknowledge that bias.
 
MW: Well you and I might agree on that Hayden, but I think there are significant numbers of young Jews who have a more universalist world view and whilst they're interested in exploring their Jewish background, they also want to understand much more about Palestinian narratives and from Birthright's perspective it's not the easiest issue in the world to resolve. Right now I know that Birthright is giving a lot of serious thought to how to engage on this issue. They understand. They've heard that message coming particularly from North America, but also from us in the UK and elsewhere in the world that we want to be sure that Birthright is doing a really good job at letting young people know that there are multiple views in Israel and not all them come from an Israeli Jewish Zionism perspective. It's something which we are in constant discussions about. The leadership of Birthright is aware of this issue, but what it doesn't want, is to allow its programs to be hijacked by people doing provocative acts which are there simply to go online virally and aren't really interested in engaging at the time with what's going on that and that's how much Birthright, I think quite reasonably, has reacted against.
 
HC: I would say as well if you are listening and you are of those opinions, you are welcome to come on 'The Bagel Podcast.' I'd love to chat to you. This is a place for all those differences of opinion. I'm just curious of what happens during crisis mode. So you get a phone call I'm presuming in whatever time it is, saying this thing has happened. Again you might not be able to talk about it, I understand. But what's the process for it? What's your process for crisis management.
 
MW: so the real crisis that we had to deal with in my tenure was the Gaza conflict in 2014 where we had some people who were in Israel already and some people who due to go to Israel and in consultation with the authorities in Israel, something called the 'Chedim Matzav - The Situation Room', which is run through the Israeli Ministry of Education, but coordinates all the programs that come to Israel, we realised very quickly that we could keep people in Israel safely, which was out top priority, but we'd have to make some significant adjustments to programs to make sure no-one was in range of rockets and we also had to run a quite significant communications strategy with the youth movements and with parents in the wider community. So we created a situation room in our offices in the UJIA which was running all day and all night. Obviously at night we weren't in the building, but through WhatsApp and telephone it was running and we would have 4 or 5 conference calls every day with people from Israel and here, just making sure that all of the programs were being run safely and properly and that the communications were being handled effectively and I think the community was reassured that we knew what we were doing. Very few children chose not to go on tour and everyone went and everyone came back safely and I think it was a model of how you run situation in in that way, which was not simple. A lot of my staff during me barely slept for about 6 weeks, but our priority was to give the young people a really good educational and fun experience and we managed to do that.
 
HC: Is it fair to say the overarching lesson that maybe other organisation can learn from, is that of communication? That if you are communicating with parents then that dissipates a lot of that stress beyond the logistics.
 
MW: Yes. Communication is absolutely key and I think that all of the community organisations have understood that better in the last few years.
 
HC: Very diplomatically put.
 
MW: I think it's true. I'm not trying to be diplomatic. I think that the level of communication that comes out of the major Jewish communal organisations is pretty good today. I think that's quite a healthy state that's going on there.
 
HC: What do you think are the major challenges for Jewish charities going forward in the next decade?
 
MW: The single biggest challenge will be an ageing major donor base. The average age of major donors in our community is not getting younger. That's not to say that young people are not generous. They are generous, but their giving patterns are different. All the charities are going to have to adjust to different ways of raising funds and distributing funds so that's the number 1. Related to that, of course, is the sheer number of charities in the community and Jonathan Goldstein, the chair of the JLC spoke about this both at Limmud in other forums recently and he's quite correct. There are too many times in the community and that means that both the Professional and the Volunteer leadership are going to need to address that issue, I would say sooner rather than later. I think where possible to have collaboration and to have mergers is very good and some charities will no doubt close and their work will be taken up by other ones. It's not a question whether this is good or bad. It's just going to happen because the number of charities is not sustainable in the long run of a community of our size.
 
HC: Fair enough. Could we maybe get a bit onto your story, if that's ok? So you were born in in London, correct?
 
MW: Yes. I was born in London was born in Palmers Green and and raised in Palmer's Green and I was very involved in youth movement in FZY.
 
HC:I won't hold it against you.
 
MW: Thank you. I went to Israel with FZY and a gap year in FZY. I'd spent 5 months in Israel earlier because I went to JFS on their Iyvat Washington program. So Israel very much entered my blood and I pretty much knew by the time I got back from my gap year that I was going to make aliyah and which indeed I did. I went to University, studied and then I made aliyah and I spent most of the last 25 years in Israel, but with three periods abroad including this one.
 
HC: So where else have you been?
 
MW: The States. We spent three wonderful years in the States in Baltimore, where I was Director of Jewish Education for the Jewish community Centres in Baltimore.
 
HC: That must have been quite a different role to heading up UJIA.
 
MW: Completely different. It was a role that was really teaching I really taught most of the time: Adult education both in the JCC and in the wider Baltimore Jewish Community. I was also a guest teacher all over the States, so I got to see America from coast to coast. Baltimore was interesting. It is 100,000 Jews of which about 25000 are ultra-orthodox. A very, very, big ultra-orthodox Yeshiva there called Neir Yisrael, a very fine establishment and a very significant, generally Orthodox community and of course very prominent reform and conservative synagogues as well. It was a nice mishmash and in that way it was quite like London in that the blend of orthodox and non- orthodox Jews.
 
HC: It seems to be very different in America. I was in Florida a few years ago and there was a young professionals event that rotated every month between reform, orthodox and conservative and I can't imagine that happening here.
 
MW: Yes. That because the Orthodox are not a majority in the United States and because there is no such thing as a Chief Rabbi or a Beth Din with a certain worldview there are less issues about reform, orthodox, conservative rabbis talking to each other and appearing on platforms.
 
HC: Fraternizing!
 
MW: I wouldn't want to romanticize it. There are, of course, tensions in the Jewish community, but you do find, it's not uncommon, for strictly Orthodox and progressive movements to have greater degrees of collaboration that sometimes you'll see here.
 
HC: Do you think we'll ever get to a point here, where that collaboration will happen?
 
MW: It's already happening here in frameworks that are not around religion. Projects such as Mitzvah day for example or Shabbat UK I think have done pretty well in bringing different denominations to take part together.
 
HC: I also had the perception that Shabbat UK is quite United Synagogue.
 
MW: Well certainly the Masorti movement has agreed to take part over the last couple of years. I don't know whether the Reform and Liberal movements have, so I can't say there, but it is a good example where, you see quite clearly people from different branches of Judaism coming together and collaborating. I think as long as theology isn't the issue people are quite comfortable about working together. I think sometimes theology can get in the way.
 
HC: So I kind of want to go back to the past to UJIA because I just find it quite- What skills do you need to have and what have you found has helped you in your role as chief exec.
 
MW: Up until my previous job in Israel, I had not really done any fundraising and of course UJIA is a fundraising organisation. But I had a lot of experience in management and leadership through education as I'd run very big projects and big organisations and in my last role in Israel at an educational charity I discovered that I could fundraise and I wasn't terrified by it and in fact I was quite inspired by former teacher of mine from Jerusalem Professor Seymour Fox, who said all fundraising in the Jewish community is really Jewish education and I saw took that mantra to heart, so when the position at UJIA became available, I decided to apply for it and was fortunate enough to to be offered the role and I really embraced the fundraising piece that came with it, and one of the great pleasures I've had at UJIA has been meeting with our donor base at every level. Not only major donors, but right throughout the community, and talking to people about Israel and Judaism and the community and they're role in it and their concerns and those conversations are really powerful conversations and it's what makes our community tick. I really found that I took to fundraising at every level. It's something that I found really empowering and a very satisfying part of my professional life.
 
HC: So can you give us some tips and tricks. I've heard that a good fundraiser should be someone that when they walk into the room, everyone walks away from them.
 
MW: Well that wouldn't be a good fundraiser. If people walk away from you -
 
HC: Because they know you're going to hit them out for money.
 
MW: But I don't want that to be how my relationship without donors is defined. I want my donors and certainly I say this to the team at UJIA. You want people who you're going to eventually canvas to have a relationship with you and they should enjoy talking to you and enjoy being with you and feel they are getting something from you as well. So I think if I saw people running away from any of our fundraising team that would give me concern. Fundraising is not transactional it's relational and that's absolutely key. So the relationship between the canvasser whether that's a professional or a volunteer and people in the community is critical. I also say to the team, people wants to give are they wouldn't take a meeting from you if they didn't want to give. Now they might not give to you. They may in the end decide that giving to UJIA is not what they want and they'd rather give somewhere else, but that's ok. If they are giving. If they are generous. If they are philanthropic that's what's so important because that's what makes the community tick. I would say the key is to have a good relationship with people. To be clear what you're asking for. To be able to either answer the questions or admit you don't know and be able to go back to them with answers. To be transparent. To be honest and eventually to be direct. You can't be vague about fundraising. You have to be clear that you're making an ask, what you want that ask to be, and those I think are some of the key tips of the trade. It's a privilege to be part of that work and anyone listening who was thinking of a career in fundraising, I would be only encouraging,
 
HC: Out of interest, do you find it's easier to fundraise for things rather than, generally UJIA? I can remember, I was at trustee in my students union. They always said that you get the alumni to pay for a bench before they'd pay for a staff member.
 
MW: So UJIA and I think several of the other charities are all going through this transition now. Where once upon a time, donors to the British Jewish community were happy to give to a pot, because they understood that the organisation they were given to was doing great work and they trusted organisation to deliver that work on their behalf. That is still the case for many many people, but we're also seeing a different group emerge in the community who do want therefore their donation to be targeted, something specific. It might be a building, it might be a program and so all charities generally, not just in the Jewish Community but everywhere in the world of philanthropy, need to consider and take into consideration, both types of donor. Those who will continue to give to the pot because they just broadly understand and accept the cause and those who want something more specific. So that's part of the skill set of the fundraiser. It's understanding quite quickly what the donor wants and being responsive to her or his particular fundraising strategy and style.
 
HC: You were saying a bit before that demographics are changing. So how is that going to look when all the wealthy people die off, to be blunt. How will that fundraising approach change?
 
MW: All the wealthy people will not die off. If you don't mind me saying, I'm not sure that's how the world operates. The next generation of major donors will give differently to their parents and grandparents that's for sure true and charities are going to need to be flexible and dynamic and be able to work with this new reality. So in UJIA one of the things that we have done recently, is we've setup a social impact innovation fund. SI3 we call it. Focused on Israel and the idea there is people will give gifts which we will offer to various companies in Israel as loans, repayable back loans, which are doing both social good and giving back a financial return and connecting British Jews to Israel. So we give those loans. They will then come back to UJIA and then in discussion with the donor we will reallocate it to a new cause. So it's a green gift. The gift that keeps on giving. So one very small example is there a very few Ethiopian Israelis who run their own small businesses. So we've created a fund with our partners in Israel giving Ethiopians the opportunity to create their own businesses. One young woman I met this year has created her own salon for doing make-up for weddings, for brides, and also providing with wedding dresses which they can borrow. So she's creating her business in that way and we've help to expand it and develop it. It's a very very tangible example of how this new type of giving will emerge and develop.
 
HC: I do find that UJIA does tend to - The projects I've heard over the years, have a certain imagination to them. I've been to, is it, the university, is it.. you'll definitely correct me, Beit El? No. There's the university that's the half Arab, half Israeli University.
 
MW: So the Western Galilee College in Acco is a college which we've done both a capital build: we help build the new business school there and also we have a lot of Educational enrichment programmes there and a bursary program for students and it is indeed a college that is split roughly evenly between Jews and Arabs and it's a really wonderful program in Acco.
 
HC: So why would you fund that?
 
MW: So we took the view, really a decade plus ago, that in order to upgrade the quality of life in the Galilee and where there was less opportunity and less development than what is in the middle of the country: Tel Aviv, Netanya, Herzliya. The colleges as they're called, were a very important vehicle of change. They were able to give people professional qualifications rather than liberal arts degrees, that would enable them to -
 
HC: I've got a liberal arts degree.
 
MW: So have I and I love my liberal arts degree and there's no problem with liberal arts degrees but for most people living in the Acco area, a liberal arts degree wasn't what was they were looking for and wouldn't necessarily have helped them and so the the Western Galilee college and the Tel Chai College and there other examples, focus much more both on scientific programs and professional programs, which were perceived by both Israeli government and by local authorities, to give a better chance of getting people into meaningful employment and I think that has been successful. These colleges of booming in Israel today. I do realise I may have given the impression that I'm hostile to liberal arts degrees, but I'm absolutely not, but I think liberal arts degrees suit a certain type of person. Really for most people, a liberal arts degree is probably not something that's going to be, in the context of Northern Israel -
 
HC: It doesn't get you a direct job. There's that side of projects in Israel projects in Israel that I would say as a kind of outsider, has a large level of pragmatism to it. In terms of making life better for everybody and then that will ultimately help everything. On the flip side the - I just want to talk a little bit about the British projects. So UJIA is a Zionist organisation. I think that's fair to say.
 
MW: So the word Zionist, does not appear in our charitable documents, because Zionism itself is not charitable. It's interesting under British charity law, so whilst it actually true that the majority of people who work for UJIA, our trustees, our staff, are of course Zionist. An organisation itself can't be Zionist.
 
HC: Can we explore that a little bit? Why not?
 
MW: Under British charity law -
 
HC: Does it specifically say Zionism?
 
MW: We of course consult with charity lawyers all the time about this sort of thing. I'm not a lawyer so you may want to bring in a lawyer to talk more about it, but from our point of view, what were able to do as a charity, is advance the welfare of people in Israel. That supporting the people of Israel which is absolute fine and engaging in education about Israel which is also fine so. Technically those are the things that are able to do. Yes of course, I personally am a Zionist and indeed I would say pretty much all of my colleagues would define themselves in that way as would our trustees, but I just want to be quite clear in case I was to be misunderstood. I'm very aware of the mind field that that is.
 
HC: There's no minefield! I've had plenty of interesting debates on that so maybe let's not go down that road way. So there's the projects that are based in Israel that legalistically are not Zionistic an in the UK there's projects that aren't. They're not against Israel, but they're more about supporting local Jewish Communities.
 
MW: But one of the shifts we've done in UJIA, and this may bore people and I don't want to bore but the work that we do in the UK is all around Israel so we really have stopped funding projects now that are not around Israel. So in the origins of UJIA, we were putting quite a lot of money into communal institutions that were not focused on Israel. That's now stopped and we realised we had to be much tighter and much more focused in our work. Everything we do now has Israel at its core.
 
HC: So why was that decision taken?
 
MW: Because there was a sense that the message was confusing. Both to ourselves and the community. What does UJIA stand for. I like to say UJIA stands for Israel. We do Israel here and we do Israel there and that that way I think we just don't have any confusion anymore.
 
HC: Well you add another level of confusion when you used to have Palestine in the name of you charity.
 
MW: Indeed. We were called the Joint Palestine Appeal for many many years. In fact I believe it wasn't until 1973.
 
HC: No?!
 
MW: Yes. And we can thank Sir Trevor Chinn who was a part of the group that made that change, but we became JIA (The Joint Israel Appeal) only in 1973. Which I agree is pretty extraordinary.
 
HC: If any is listening and their doing pub quiz that should definitely go on there. So just before we finish, what's the next big plan? Can you divulge?
 
MW: really can't divulge right now. There are some big plans. <aybe we'll have to do a recap of this interview in a few weeks time when things are a bit clearer, but certainly I'll be staying in the area of Israel and Jewish education and fundraising; Those sort of areas.
 
HC: I'll just wait until you're the presidential consultant you're staying very quiet. Michael Wegier, thank you very very much for your time and I wish you all the very best with whatever it is, you end up doing. Thank you.
 
MW: Thank you very much indeed.
 
HC: Again many thanks to Michael. This was a few weeks ago so I asked him what's next and the international Man of Mystery replied with: I'm going to be starting work as a consultant in fundraising and strategy for major international NGO's both in and out of the Jewish community. Answers on a postcard. That's it for this Bagel Bite. The next main episode will be a Passover special, but I may release one more bite before then. See you next time Baglers.

The post Michael Wegier – Bagel Bite appeared first on The Bagel Podcast.

Before that here are the various links:

If you have something to say email – oy@bagelpodcast.com

Mailing List Signup (there are prizes to be won) – Congratulations to Jo Lebor from Leeds who won a dozen bagels! – Mailing List

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00:00 – Introduction

Bit of international banter and an introduction to the show.

Jewish chef Denise Philips talks to us about the perfect Challah to coincide with Shabbat UK. She also does lessons! Book yours here – https://jewishcookery.com/

09:03 – Talmud for Schmeryls

I’m joined by Clive Lawton who’s talking us about Ben Azzai (I had no idea who he was either).

17:18 – What Israeli Going On?

TLV1’s Gilad Halpern updates us on the upcoming Israeli elections. Listen to Gilad’s own podcast: The Tel Aviv Review, here – https://tlv1.fm/podcasts/tel-aviv-review-show/

32:44 – JQ Wingate Literary Prize

I went to the JQ Wingate Literary Prize at JW3. Listen to hear the winner and a little bit of analysis.

35:06 – Ask Julia

Julia Gazgag answers what to do when your Mother and Mother in Law both want to come on holiday with the family.

38:13 – Bagel Broigus

Board of Deputies President Marie van der Zyl, Ben Crowne and Clive Lawton discuss whether the Jewish community should air it’s dirty linen in public.

The post Cooking the Books & Baking the Challah appeared first on The Bagel Podcast.

Transcript

Hayden Cohen  0:00 

Hello and welcome to the ‘Bagel Bite’. The part of ‘The Bagel Podcast’ where I’ve tried and failed to circumcise enough to go into a main episode. And with Clive Lawton, it was always doomed to failure, as he’s just too interesting. If you don’t know who he is at the moment, carry on listening, and you’ll find out. We cover how we formed Holocaust education in the UK, his work with Jewish youth movements and education as a whole. He shares general leadership tips and of course we discussed his background with Limmud.  It was a bit of a surreal experience to have Clive in my flat. I’ll paint the picture. He knocks on my door with turquoise jeans and turquoise long sleeve t shirt, his trademark ponytail and beard, and wearing sandals– No socks, no coat, in December. As I’m a fantastic host, if I do say so myself, I offer Clive a cup of tea, making care to tell him that my milk is not kosher supervised, before I hit record on our interview. What then followed was? (pause) Well, I don’t know what it was. A talk? A lecture? a something? About how he would have been more offended if I had kosher milk. He touched on Midrash, the role of the Sanhedrin and the commercialisation of kashrut. And this was before the interview had even started. Before I hit play on our interview, please could I ask that you share the bagel with at least one friend or even better, be like Noah, and get two on board? It really does help us out considerably. Anyway, enjoy.

Hayden Cohen  1:30 

So it’s my pleasure to be joined by Clive Lawton OBE, who’s here, in my flat. It’s a surreal experience for me. Welcome, welcome. How you doing?

Clive Lawton  1:42 

Yeah, fine. It’s quite surreal experience for me as well.

Hayden Cohen  1:44 

(Laughs)

Clive Lawton  1:45 

Yeah, all is well.

Hayden Cohen  1:46 

It’s just because we’re so used to seeing each other, either at Warwick University or a hotel in Birmingham for Limmud. This is just out of our comfort zones, right?

Clive Lawton  1:57 

Yes, it’s big like little children at primary school, when they see their teacher in the shop and they just can’t believe that the individual exists out of context.

Hayden Cohen  2:05 

Right.

Clive Lawton  2:05 

But it’s nice to know that we both really do exist.

Hayden Cohen  2:07 

And it is, it is good. Yeah. But I’d say that just for the majority of listeners, especially at the moment, because this is going to go out on the first episode, will probably know you or at the very least know somebody who knows you. But for those who don’t, I mean, I’ve previously described you as Mr. Limmud. But then that also presupposes that people know what Limmud is right?

Clive Lawton  2:36 

Yeah. Absolutely. To assume that most people know me ,is really highly unlikely. It becomes very, very easy to be a big fish in a small pool and think that everybody knows who you are. But the fact of the matter is that out there, the vast majority of people don’t, is perfectly possible for me to go to a Jewish food shop and not greet anybody I know. And I think that in fact, I had this brought home to me very forcefully, many, many years ago. It must have been in the 1980s or so. I’ve already made a bit of a name for myself, I was working at the Board of Deputies and so on. And I was approached by a publisher to produce a series of primary school books for children about religions. And it was my job to kind of design the books, you know– suggest what they should look like and how they should work. And I suggested that these books should be called ‘I Am a…’ whatever it was. Christian, Rastafarian, whatever it might be. And the design would be–a child talking about their lives in this religion. It would be a picture per page. There’d be a little sentence from them. This is me lighting the Hanukiah, or whatever it might be. Then a little paragraph from me, as it were saying Hanukah is the festival of…?? That was the idea. So, the editor that I was talking to, was very pleased with this and went off to the publishers and said, this is what we’re planning to do. And they came back and said, ‘Hmm, We’ll.. We’re going to do the first six books and What we thought we do is, ‘I am a Rastafarian’, ‘I’m a Catholic’, ‘I’m a Buddhist’, ‘I am a Muslim’, ‘I am Jewish. I am.  I said ‘Why I am Jewish’?. Why not, ‘I am a Jew’?

Hayden Cohen  4:13 

And they said “Are you sure that’s not offensive, Is that alright?” And I said “No, that’s that’s fine. I am a Jew”. It’s okay. Oh, all right. “Well, no fine if you think that’s all right, fine”. So the book came out. Very well received, sold into all kinds of libraries and schools and what-not around the country. And they got a letter–From Mrs. Goldbloom or Goldberg or Rosenberg or something or other from Stanford Hill. She found the book in Hackney Library, and wrote to say, that she had no idea who this Clive Lawton was. But if only he’d consulted a Jew, he would have known how offensive this title is.

Hayden Cohen  4:51 

And that was it. I think before before all the all the dodginess happened, Louie C.K. did a routine about it where he said that Jew is the only word that I could think of  that’s both a ordinary descriptor and an insult.

Clive Lawton  5:08 

Well, I mean, there are probably others– black, I think probably has that same effect. And maybe even, I don’t know Welsh or French. It all depends, what side of, whichever line you’re on. Irish, maybe I don’t know.   Groups people like to be contemptuous often. But also it is interesting, I mean ‘Jew’ does do something to your face when you say it. It does kind of scrunch it up a bit Jew kind of scrunches your mouth in unison together. It’s not an expensive word doesn’t make you smile. ‘Jew’ is not easy to say with a smile. So I think it does have some of that uh, that aggression term. Oh my goodness, we got to reclaim it. Haven’t we, you know, ‘Jew’ is beautiful.

Hayden Cohen  5:41 

Yes, it is. And we are two beautiful Jews (Laughs)

Clive Lawton  5:45 

(Laughs) Speak for yourself. (Laughs) Lucky, this is radio.

Hayden Cohen  5:48 

So yeah, I just wanted to kind of go, go back then. right because you seem to have every time. Every time I have a conversation with you, I learn that you’ve had a different role somewhere else?

Clive Lawton  6:01 

(Laughs) Yeah, well, if you keep moving they can’t get you. That’s the basic principle.

Hayden Cohen  6:04 

(Laughs)

Clive Lawton  6:05 

I started out as a teacher- English and Drama. And fairly quickly, found myself at JFS school.  A bit of a surprise, I grew up in West Ealing right out on the west of London.  I went to the small Ealing United Synagogue shul. And that’s where I grew up. I’m very enthusiastically Jewish family–  A quite uncommon Jewish family, in the sense of that  My mother was Sephardi, from Gibraltar. My father was from deep long, English Jewish stock– A Highly assimilated family actually. He, therefore learned most of his Judaism from my mother   So domestic practises were all Sephardi.  And synagogue practises were all Ashkenazi. But we were shomer shabbat. We kept the rules of shabbat.  And I always said, we were the only amateur shomer shabbat family in Ealing because you had the rabbi and the kosher butcher and the chazzan. But I think we were the only people losing money out of keeping Shabbat while

Hayden Cohen  7:02 

(Laughs)

Clive Lawton  7:02 

Everybody else was making a living. And, so I grew up in this family that was tremendously positive and enthusiastic Judaism. I didn’t have a lot of that ‘Oy Vey’ , ‘Lachrymose’ Jewish Isn’t it tough being Jewish thing?’ I didn’t have the Yiddish tradition, didn’t have any real access to the Holocaust story. My parents were from long standing ‘proud and out, isn’t, “Aren’t we lucky to be Jews kind of thing’. Anyways, so that’s what I grew up in. I became a teacher and as I say, went to JFS. I don’t think I’d seen so many Jews all in one place. I had as a youth, I got very involved in a youth movement, which no longer exists, called Jewish Youth Study groups. And that was a fabulous movement. It did what it says on the tin. It’s Jewish youth and it studied.

Hayden Cohen  7:47 

I really wanted to get in there, but it never got to Leeds.

Clive Lawton  7:50 

No, we never had a group in Leeds. Well, I became National Chairman and that resulted in me, swanning around the country and going to Newcastle, and Glasgow, and Cardiff, and wherever. Brighton and so forth and meeting Jews from all around. And these summer and winter camps, are tremendously enthusiastic places. And that enriched my enthusiastic Jewishness still more. Anyway, I became a teacher. I turned up at JFS, which gave me a different insight, I guess into the way that the Jewish community is, and behaved and felt. And then I went from there to the Board of Deputies, where I became Director of Education and Community Relations– Got very involved in sort of interfaith stuff, into religious stuff and religious education, and became something of a maven on R.E. and religious studies, uh subsequently doing a master’s degree in Hinduism and Islam. As a result of that, I became Chief Examiner for A-level and so forth. While at the Board of Deputies, I got very involved in Holocaust Education, but it should be said that there was no Holocaust Education when I arrived at the Board of Deputies. It simply did not exist. I know it’s really difficult for people to believe, but in 1979, when I got to the Board of Deputies, nobody,

Clive Lawton  8:59 

Nobody knew what Holocaust Education was.  Let alone what it could look like. It simply didn’t exist.

Hayden Cohen  9:05 

What did you mean? Full stop or….?

Clive Lawton  9:08 

Full stop. Uh, There were a few youth movements that were occasionally on Tisha B’av or some other miserable day doing some programme designed to upset their children and, you know, make them cry, whatever. They would use the Holocaust in that context. There were of course, schools doing the ‘Diary of Anne Frank’, which of course was terribly upsetting as a book, but when you think about it, of course, it finishes, just as the Holocaust element starts. So, you didn’t really get into that, uh except for the sort of– dot,dot,dot at the end of it. ‘The World At War’, which had been a big sort of landmark BBC programme, had had an episode narrated by Laurence Olivier called ‘Genocide’. But I mean, that was a TV programme, it wasn’t a school thing. that. There simply nobody talks about simply nobody talked about it. When I was at the Board of Deputies, I became responsible for organising the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising Memorial meeting, where a lot of elderly people with Central European accents came and made sad statements and a few children lit candles and whatever, but nobody knew anything.  And of course, Remember, that the vast majority of the lands where the Holocaust happened, specifically, the Nazis used Poland for that, didn’t they? That was more or less cut off from us. We couldn’t get there because of the Iron Curtain, so nobody could visit or see anywhere. So three things happened soon after I arrived at the Board of Deputies. One of the American networks, CBS whatever, something like that, produced a miniseries called ‘Holocaust’, which was a sort of 2/3 night glossy Hollywood show. Lots of Jewish people were tremendously purist about it, thought it was a disgraceful and not enough people died. It wasn’t honest enough and all the rest of it. But the fact that it was kind of quite a romanticky sort of story, quite glossy, meant to say that lots of people watched it. The result of that was, that lots of people started asking questions, ‘How come we didn’t know about this before’. The second thing that happened– was that the Bishop of Stepney, the then Bishop of Stepney, had visited Auschwitz and had negotiated– this was communist still, had negotiated that he could bring to the Crypt of Stepney Cathedral or whatever it is–His place. He could bring to the crypt elements from the Auschwitz Exhibition, and he could set up the Auschwitz Exhibition and this was tremendously warmly supported by the then Mayor of London, who is a furious anti-fascist, of course, because he was a hard left man called Ken Livingstone.

Hayden Cohen  11:33 

(Laughs)

Clive Lawton  11:33 

And uh. So, Ken Livingstone, and the then Inner London Educational Authority (ILEA), decided that they wanted educational materials to go with this so that schools could all schools in ILEA should go and see this Auschwitz Exhibition and nobody knew what sort of material to produce and they gave to the Board of Deputies and there I was, Education Director, and I was given the task of producing this pack. And I drew together a bunch of teachers, none of us had a clue how to start. That’s just remember that when I was at school 20 years earlier than that in the 1960s. I did an O- level History– Modern European and British History 1914 to 1951. Anybody whose history is not strong and needs to be reminded that that spans the years of the Second World War and the nazi period. I did that course like I said, I was a proud out happy, confident, educated Jew. At no point in that course, was the Holocaust mentioned. At no point did I think it was odd.

Hayden Cohen  12:30 

Wow.

Clive Lawton  12:31 

It just wasn’t on the agenda. And one of the reasons why, was because everybody said, “Well, this is just too upsetting. You can’t do this with small children”. And uh, I discovered that in fact, it wasn’t even on the curricula of Modern History programmes for undergraduates, because generally historians at universities felt it was too upsetting for people so young. Did one of the loud voices resisting, putting it into such programmes was a well known Jewish historian. of the time. I…

Hayden Cohen  13:01 

Was it, was it because that they felt that it was too soon?

Clive Lawton  13:04 

Well, I don’t know about too soon. We’re now talking about the 1980s. I think uh, that they felt it was too upsetting. You see, when you haven’t processed something yourself, you don’t know you want to talk about something, then you don’t want to teach children bout it. But let’s face it, we’ve had the same thing with Drugs Education, or Sex Education, or anything else. This is all to do with the fact that teachers are worried about getting upset when they talk about it. Because kids aren’t. They couldn’t care less. They’ll  talk about anything. It’s teachers who are scared, and. And therefore they just don’t want to talk about anything which might upset them. And the Holocaust is a good example. So, when I approached the A-level Boards from the Board of Deputies to ask why this wasn’t on the syllabuses, they said, “Well, it’s just too upsetting”. And I said, “If I can devise a pedagogy and a syllabus, and a curriculum, that can be taught to this age group that fits this age group, will you put it on those syllabus?” “Well, of course, it’s missing. It should be there” so I did and they did.

Hayden Cohen  13:51 

Because it seems like a ridiculous excuse. That it’s too upsetting

Clive Lawton  13:55 

It was real. I mean, after all, why, you know, why don’t we do perfectly straightforward things like for example, like sex Education in a serious , I do that for or because it was just kind of, you know,

Hayden Cohen  14:07 

I was, I was just expected I was expecting from the other way that it would be, that it was difficult to find enough survivors to speak because it was too recent for them to talk about.

Clive Lawton  14:15 

Yes, in those days. Nobody was talking about survivors. No, that was that wasn’t on the agenda. Um, at all. As far as I recall, I then went to the O-level Boards as they were then the GCSE things and said, “Why isn’t this on the curriculum?”, they go “Well it was too upsetting for children at this age”. And I said again, “You know, if I and they said “yes”, and it went on to the GCSE syllabuses, and then the national curriculum was established in 1988. And I felt that if you could get this into Key Stage Three, because that’s the time before people give up history, then everybody would do something about the Holocaust. So again, I went to the National Curriculum Council. I was on the National Curriculum Council for English and R.E.

Hayden Cohen  14:54 

Of course you were. (Laughs)

Clive Lawton  14:55 

Um, so I went and said, “Why is this not on the history curriculum?” They go well, “Kids are too young they’re only 14 as I said” If you can teach them…” and they said “Yes, well you can” and so it is now in Key Stage Three. And then, subsequently, I produced the first book and to this day surprisingly, the only book– history book, on the Holocaust designed for middle school children children aged nine…..

Hayden Cohen  15:17 

Well, middle schools don’t exist anymore. So that’s…

Clive Lawton  15:20 

but that age group, the nine, the top juniors into lower um…..

Hayden Cohen  15:25 

No other books exists?

Clive Lawton  15:27 

Not history books.  Not history books.  There are, sometimes slightly disgraceful books in there like ‘The Boy in the Striped Pajamas’, which leads people to think that they’ve dealt with the Holocaust, even though it’s a fiction and not very accurate,

Hayden Cohen  15:39 

Right. But then, but I.  For example, ‘A Detail of History’? But I don’t know if you know Arek Hersh? who’s a survivor up up North

Hayden Cohen  15:45 

you wouldn’t give that to 10 year olds.

Hayden Cohen  15:46 

No, I think it’s designed. It’s designed for No, yeah (uh) , you probably wouldn’t.

Clive Lawton  15:50 

It’s older. Older

Clive Lawton  15:51 

It’s, It’s Key Stage Three, it’s um 11 to 14, and that’s fine. I’m not saying everybody’s got to study it at age 5. But of course, it’s  just true to my own convictions, that there is No subject, you can’t teach– any child– at any age– the key is in determining the best way to deliver it. You know, all this nonsense about whether you can do Drugs Education with preschoolers. Of course you can. It’s just find the right things to say and the pertinent issues. Kids ask questions, kids are interested. They don’t carry all the guff that adults carry. Uh

Hayden Cohen  16:21 

That probably makes it better. Right? I mean, is it? Yeah,

Clive Lawton  16:23 

Yeah. Yeah. So that was one of the things I did at the Board. Was getting involved in this Holocaust Education field, and I would say, probably inventing it for school age Back then,

Hayden Cohen  16:34 

But how did you? What inspired you to do that?

Clive Lawton  16:39 

Well, it was just obvious. Education, is necessary, isn’t it? I mean, if there’s a field that ought to be known,  then it ought to be known. I was certainly prompted not least by the Inner London Education Authority and the Auschwitz exhibition at Stepney. So it was a Christian and antisemite, who made me do this. I think you know, there’s a field of knowledge and nobody knows how to teach it. What I mean, Well, that’s just a gift isn’t it, you got to explore that ,you got to know how to do it. But that, of course, is not the only thing I was involved in there. And while I was there, three friends and I got together and invented Limmud, and I was very happy to be able to use the kind of air cover I suppose that the Board was prepared to give a good project to enable us to get some of those things going. I remember also while at the Board, I supported an organisation in those days called ‘AJ. 6’– Association of Jewish sixth formers.

Hayden Cohen  17:30 

IWas in AJ6.

Clive Lawton  17:32 

Right, Well,AJ6 had a lot of difficulty getting, for example, you know, renting a space because it was a bunch of kids. So , I would bring the Board in and together will guarantee this and attend and make it alright. So I was given a lot of leeway. I was very lucky. I was given a lot of leeway by the Board to pursue my own enthusiasms. So I was there and then I became Head at King David, Liverpool. And then became Deputy Director of the local education authorities Liverpool LEA. Then headhunted back down to London for a thing called ‘Jewish Continuity’, which was the then Chief Rabbi, Lord Sachs’ big initiative, and then went freelance and continued to do a whole range of different things both inside and outside of the Jewish community. I must say that that three years with ‘Jewish Continuity’ was the only time in my life that I worked pretty well exclusively within the Jewish community. I’ve always tried to have a foot on both sides of the castle.

Hayden Cohen  18:27 

Why?

Clive Lawton  18:29 

Because the world is both deep and wide. And, I love the depth and intimacy of working in the Jewish world. And of course, the Jewish world is also very wide. I mean, it is a world. Let’s face it, but it has its own particular angle. And one of the exciting things about working outside of the Jewish community– To go and do some educational advisory work in Southeast Asia or in Sub Saharan Africa or Latin America or indeed Ormskirk is just to find the voice to talk to a different kind of world.

Hayden Cohen  19:06 

Do you find that the principles are similar? or not?

Clive Lawton  19:10 

Umm, In certain ways. Many people cluster into communities and have that sense of relationship one, with another certain intimacy.

Hayden Cohen  19:20 

That, that seems to be your community, Community seems to be. Community Education seems to be your bag, you know, in terms of… or, or Is that unfair?

Clive Lawton  19:29 

No, I think that’s probably right. Although that’s broadened into the generic business of kind of leadership and organisational management. So, it’s not because of that, that I became Chair of a hospital board. And it’s not because of that, that I was on the Metropolitan Police Authority. Those are other things.  But they are a genuine interest in how communities care for themselves, or how communities manage their delivery of their needs. So I think, it’s become broader than that. And certainly, as far as education was concerned, From a very early stage, I was absolutely convinced that schools are really unhelpful. So, while I was head of a school, so I’m going to can’t completely bad mouth the institution, I’m deeply committed to the idea that education is what goes on, you know, when schools get out of the way most of the time and

Hayden Cohen  20:19 

I’m a, I’m a. I’m a fellow ex English teacher, so I get it.

Clive Lawton  20:22 

Well, one of the things I loved, love about Limmud is that it refuses to play the game and kind of hierarchy and experts and authorities and so on. And allows anybody who wants to teach something to anybody to do it. And trusts the student to make sense of the experience they’re having, and I think an awful lot more of that.

Hayden Cohen  20:43 

That is such, That is such a diplomatic answer, resonate with, you know, will? Anyone who’s been to Limmud has sat in a session by someone who maybe isn’t is under research and is  inexperienced, but then I suppose part of the Limmud experience is allowing people to do that. Right?

Clive Lawton  20:49 

And to grow.

Hayden Cohen  21:02 

yeah,

Clive Lawton  21:02 

But they’ll come back next year and there’ll be a bit better, maybe. And certainly limmuds around the world have created a country of educators.

Hayden Cohen  21:10 

Can you just just for those who don’t know what Limmud is, can you just distill it in? I’ll give you two sentences.

Clive Lawton  21:15 

Okay (Laughs)

Clive Lawton  21:16 

So a Limmud is an organisation, I suppose that’s what one should say, is an organisation which creates events and opportunities,in which the, the aspiration, the dream, the ideal, is to bring the entire Jewish world into that place. And allow people to learn whatever they like about Jewish things, Jewish stuff. Uh, Without anybody telling them what they should learn, or telling them what is more or less important or more or less pertinent. That’s one sentence And the second sentence–

Hayden Cohen  21:49 

A very long sentence.

Clive Lawton  21:50 

Oh, yes. I’m an english teacher, afterall. .. l know about compound sentences. And the second sentence I’m just going to quote the Limmud strapline–  the Limmud mission, which is “Wherever you are, on your Jewish journey, Limmud undertakes to help you take one further step”. So it’s about YOU. It’s not about, We in Limmud think this is what you need to learn, or the ideal Jew should know this, or any of those things. You have. You want to be moving. There’s nothing duller and deader than a Jew who’s smugly happy with what they know. So you ought to be trying, wanting. But, what the next step is– Who can possibly tell you? You need to and you probably don’t know yourself. So you come something like Limmud and you try some of this and you try some of that, you learn a bit or that, you listen to some of this. And over time, You begin to find your own direction or preference or growth area, you might find many,

Hayden Cohen  22:45 

But it’s it’s interesting, because that that whole concept, is to a certain degree. opposite to what a lot of rabbanim, rabbis would, would say. There’s some rabbis who are very much Limmudnicks and very much You know, I don’t want to. But, there are some that I, you know, you nto be taught by experts?

Hayden Cohen  23:05 

Well, I think. We can recognise everything like I mean, there’s not just rabbis, It’s professors as well.  There’s such structures, such authority, such statuses are constructed on the authority that, that individual has, that the individual carries that status as a mark of their authority to say something decisive, definitive about whatever it is they’re teaching–whether it’s chemistry or Talmud. And therefore, they’re going to be very uneasy about a bunch of people who turn up and go, “Well let anybody do it”. No, I mean, lots of people. And of course it is, let’s be honest, some people can deliver complete nonsense. They just don’t know.

Hayden Cohen  23:40 

But the one thing I love about Limmud is if if you say anything that isn’t 100% right, there will be someone who knows more than you who will be more than happy to correct you.

Clive Lawton  23:51 

Well, of course, that’s the beauty of adult learning is one of the realities of all other kinds of learning of kindergarten or university or whatever– is There’s a contract, which is the teacher knows more than the student. All right, that might just be a little bit more, but knows more than the student. And, to some degree, also they have a greater life experience, we usually then the students so they can take the thing forward, and they can draw themselves up to their full height and say to the student, “You be quiet. I’m the person with authority here.  In adult learning, you cannot do it– First of all, because frequently, the people in the room, have

Clive Lawton  24:23 

much more life experience than the teacher.  They may well have much more wisdom. And of course, they may have more knowledge. Why does somebody come to my session on I don’t know, whatever it might be ‘Israel’, let’s say because they are very interested in Israel, and they’ve made it their own life study. I’d like to know what I have to say about it. So there’s lots of reasons for turning up.  They might come because they’ve never heard of assertion about Israel, or they might come because this is absolutely their favourite subject, and therefore they know a lot more than I do. That’s all part of the discursive dynamic of Adult Education. And it’s a beautiful thing. I begin to believe that education ought to be x-rated and we shouldn’t let children near it until they’re about 18

Hayden Cohen  24:34 

(Laughs). That’s an interesting moral to take away. You know,

Clive Lawton  25:02 

It’s where people learn, isn’t it? It’s when the learning goes on, we take children, I mean,

Hayden Cohen  25:08 

Probably just because you’re not learning, right? Here’s the way you paraphrase it, you know, you’re repeating ?

Clive Lawton  25:13 

Well, you think about what we know, we know that little tiny toddlers, you know, up to about the age of five just do not stop exploring, asking they want to know everything, right? And then, after that age is gone by, then we stick them in school, right? And slowly, they become more and more bored with the world. And so by the time they’re teenagers, they couldn’t care less about anything. And they just roll their eyes and go, “Whatever”.  And they’re not interested, and they don’t want to know anything. And then, When they emerge from that teenagehood, and they’re slowly beginning to see the world as a place of interest, and I need to get to grips with it. And I want to understand what’s happening and I need to be a player here, we chuck them out of school. So compulsory schooling spans the period of the time where kids don’t want to learn.

Hayden Cohen  25:49 

I don’t. I don’t

Hayden Cohen  25:49 

of time when kids don’t want to learn

Hayden Cohen  25:49 

II don’t agree Oh, I was, I was an inquisitive teenager. You know, I was an annoying asking questions, trying to figure the world out. And , I would wager that you were as well.?

Clive Lawton  26:02 

Yes, and this is the big mistake. We are people who were successful in the system as you said yourself, you were teacher, I was a teacher. We are the people who made it through. For teachers to judge the pertinence of the system, by the people who succeed, is to fail to notice the people for whom it says nothing. Right? Schools, classrooms, curriculums, uh timetables, uniforms, all the trappings, discipline- For goodness sake! You know, we’re not supposed to be police officers, we are supposed to be teachers.  All of that business, that goes on in British schools. And let’s face it, the British have never liked children. So why would they want to do anything nice for them. All of that, is not designed to deliver education is not designed to create learned, wise, autonomous, individuals.  It is designed to fit people into the system. More, it was more overt when you had grammar schools and secondary modern schools. We, again specifically we have so many jobs in offices and so many jobs in factories. That’s what They’d better learn, but it’s still, pretty much there. We’re not trying to create anybody, encourage anybody to think for themselves. That’s the last thing we want to do.

Hayden Cohen  27:10 

So, so one just to defend myself. I did write 9000 words attacking Michael Gove’s education policies of creating hegemonic structures. So I thought you’d like that. Yeah, he

Clive Lawton  27:20 

Yeah, he hadn’t been born by the time I was.

Hayden Cohen  27:23 

(Laughs) But I, I just think it’s uh, it’s interesting than as to what do you find what we found frustrating in that process? Because I think what what you’ve, you’ve done a lot of incredible successful things that have grown. Limmud–I don’t think anyone could ever have expected it to be as big as it’s now got. Maybe you did. Maybe it wasn’t. But you know, it’s in how many countries you know, like 40…..

Hayden Cohen  27:48 

It’s about 40 to 50 countries in about 95 different places around the world

Hayden Cohen  27:52 

Right. So what were the um,  because I’m always interested, what were the pressure points along the way?

Clive Lawton  27:58 

Well, I said at the very first Limmud, which we had about 70 people back in 1980. I said I see no reason why we shouldn’t have 3000 people here. So I don’t know if that was just bravado or a genuine vision but I do remember saying

Hayden Cohen  28:11 

It could have been both.

Clive Lawton  28:12 

Right, I do remember saying it. We haven’t quite got there yet. 2,500 is pretty close.

Hayden Cohen  28:17 

So, so what was that? but what why are you just there? Why? Why did you see a need for it in the first place?

Hayden Cohen  28:24 

Oh, because British Jewry was so dull and stupid. uh, and boring. And uh, we were going to spend the rest of our lives here. It’s a good cup. It was a very ignorant community and very smug and satisfied with its ignorance. It was a Philistine community mostly, I mean, the Jew in the Bude didn’t have a clue. So, so this was about popularising the opportunity to learn, as well. Giving people a chance to learn and think and do more and to broaden their sense of who had a right to Jewish stuff. That is it shouldn’t belong to some specialist or expert or nominated fellow with a qualification or something.  So it was very much about democratising Jewish learning, making it available to people.  And democratising the capacity to transmit what you knew to other people. So not saying “No, you’re qualified”, “You’re not qualified”, “You can speak”, “You can’t speak”. So, That was there, from the very beginning, I think we, we knew that there were a lot more interesting people in the community than any single individual would know. And of course, one of the great fault lines of the community is between the Orthodox and the Progressive, say. So as a general rule, nobody in the Orthodox camp knew, there was anybody interested in the progressive camp, and vice versa. Nobody amongst the progressive knew there was anybody interesting in the Orthodox.  And stereotypes and stupidity about the other group. So I mean, just simply to take that, and give people an opportunity to find out they’re interesting people there.  But that’s also true about Manchester to London, or Scotland to England, or young to old ,or any of those things, male or female, whatever. So, just opening that whole thing up. Also, from the very beginning, It was important to us that there were people that from overseas because again, Britain was and is becoming again pretty insular, inward looking place.

Hayden Cohen  30:07 

Only 53% of the time? Well,

Clive Lawton  30:09 

(Laughs) Well, the vast majority of British Jews know nothing about Jews overseas and don’t want to really. You know, it’s I mean. There are fascinating communities all around the world. And generally speaking, I mean, if they go on holiday to someplace they might go and visit and come back. “No, did you know that, isn’t that weird?” But they’re not really that interested? So we know a bit about American Jewry and broadly contemptuous of it.  And we know about a bit Israeli Jewry and don’t know what it’s all, and how it works. And that’s about it. And otherwise, it’s our own suburb, emotionally.

Hayden Cohen  30:31 

Just a Quick sidetrack on it, though, if there is anybody for any of those communities that wants to come on the bagel podcast, I genuinely Do want hear from people that we don’t hear from. Yeah, that’s genuinely one of the reasons I started this is so that I would hear stories and hear about communities that no one hears about.

Clive Lawton  30:57 

Right. Well, I mean, there are Turkish Jews here. There are Adeni Jews here there are Indian Jews here. There are Jews from Romania, there are Jews from Italy. I mean, London luckily attracts people of all kinds are here. And you’re right. It’d be lovely for people to hear of them and about them. And these communities are fascinating and they throw a light on how one can live Jewishly, but not exactly as we do.  You know that you’ve called this The Bagel Podcast, and a half the Jews of the world have no clue what that meant. Right?

Hayden Cohen  31:25 

Right.

Clive Lawton  31:26 

And just to know that to broaden that sense, so we wanted at Limmud as well, that there should be overseas people because we wanted to produce a kind of paradoxical experience for people who came– On the one hand, we wanted them to go away saying, “Aren’t we lucky to live in this place?”,  “Look at the resources we have”, “Well, I never knew what a rich diverse interesting crowd of people we had”, that thing. But at the same time, we wanted them to go away going, “Oh my goodness, there’s so much out there we didn’t know about I mean, how come Britain has never heard about this initiative, that idea, this development, and so forth”. So we wanted people from overseas.  It was or nearly 20 years later, that a chap called Andrew Gilbert, who was very significant in that sort of mid stage of Limmud’s development– Very, very significant in that proposed that Limmud could and should go to communities overseas. It’s not in the spirit of Limmud to try and set itself or go and tell people what to do. But by that time, we had had people visiting from other countries, not only as presenters, but just simply because they liked and wanted to come. And I was appointed very part time first Professional Officer, Executive Director of Limmud, at that time. And so I made it my business, and not least prompted and nudged by Andrew to approach these folks who are coming from other countries. And saying, “Well, you know, why don’t you create your own Limmud”. And started thinking about how to how to do it and advising them and training them and so on. So that’s one of the reasons I got so involved in the business of training and developing these Limmuds overseas. I probably worked with, I suppose about three quarters of them over time, helping them grow their local teams and understand what makes Limmud–Limmud. And so on,

Hayden Cohen  33:01  

Because I know that was an interesting point within it. I’ve seen something over the past few years, where it used to be that regional Limmuds were about. So regional Limmuds, day Limmuds that happen in other cities rather than the main two and a half thousand hopefully 3000 conference festival. And it,  it was that, the to find their own voice whereas now There seems to be a bit of a branding unification that’s going on, which is quite a different tact?

Clive Lawton  33:29 

I’m not sure about that. I think that there’s always been what makes a limmud–a Limmud?

Hayden Cohen  33:35 

Learning.

Clive Lawton  33:36 

Well, learning.  There are in fact, 10 values–Learning, obviously is one of them. There are other things– Respect and uh Mutual Responsibility and Diversity, Various things. Anybody who’s attended Limmud and thought about it a bit could probably dream up six or eight of them straightaway. Those values are what make a limmud– a Limmud. And if some group of people in Antarctica, want to get together and do this thing. They will be told by Limmud Well, what you need to do, is you need to be sure that you follow through on these 10 values. And if you do that, you can call yourself a Limmud. And we’d be very happy to have you come to join us at festival, We’ll train your leaders, and we’ll send somebody out and work with you if you want.  If you don’t want, don’t have to, but that’s what it is. And that’s part of joining the Limmud family. There’s no formal stipulation that says “And if you do that, don’t you dare do anything other than use our logo or whatever it might be”. But one of the reasons why people want to associate with Limmud is because of its brand.  It’s now a worldwide famous thing. And to be able to say you’ve heard of Limmud, it is now coming to your own doorstep, this “This Global Phenomenon”, is a pretty fancy thing. So then, by all means, I mean every Limmud has its own logo.  Uh There are 95 logos and it’s a beautiful thing to see and they’re all particular to that place in one way or another. But there is a What should we say–international global Limmud logo, which we asked them to put on their material, too, and it’s to their benefit, because they can say we belong to this family. So that’s what it is. And it’s not a franchise in that sense. They’ve I mean, nobody’s asked to sign a contract or pay a fee or anything like that. They’re in a family.

Hayden Cohen  35:17 

And so, how did they even develop? It just, it seems. Because Limmud now is a is rather sprawling, in terms of the projects that Limmud does? It it, I mean, I’m a Limmudnick, I would say, and I don’t know 1% of what Limmud does.  So, how is that even remotely manageable?

Clive Lawton  35:34 

(Laughs) Well, it’s one of those glorious little things, isn’t it? I think it’s uh, There’s a lot of trust involved. So, you’re not trying to control every feature of everything. You’re trusting people because they’ve signed up to a similar shared culture and concept. It’s a process of support. So if things are going well, you don’t need to interfere with them. But if they’re going badly or not as successfully as you’d like. Because there’s not a blame culture, because Limmudnicks want to support each other, then somebody will bring to Limmud very quickly “This is not working, can you help us” rather than “Oh, dear, we better hide it under the carpet, otherwise we’ll be penalised or judged to fail or whatever it might be”. So I think that there’s a very comfortable, fluent conversation amongst the various leaders around the world.

Hayden Cohen  36:28 

Do you think, You have to be a certain type of person to have those leadership roles?  So actually have the confidence to stand up and go, “Yeah, it’s not working so well. That’s okay”. Do you think that there might be a danger that there’s some people who were chased away?

Clive Lawton  36:45 

Well, there may be uh, an illusion that there’s some kind of ideal person or something, but that’s a bit the same as somebody saying “Certain kinds of people can be parents and certain kinds of people can’t”.– Ah, That may actually be true, but the kinds are not along the categories that you and I might try to define. Clearly, some people become parents and afterwards you look at them and go, this person is no good at this.  This is a catastrophe.  You might be able to train them a bit, you might be able to help them a bit, but no doubt, there are some people who are simply incapable of doing it. But, generally speaking, you would say, well, anybody can have a go at this.  And most people have enough sense to make it work, well enough. And if you give them support, even better.  And, I think that’s about leadership, really. This idea somehow, that there’s a special cast of people who are brilliant at leading, and everybody else is rubbish. I think it’s kind of important to remember you know that our key Jewish leader was Moses, and although he got a 40 year, apprenticeship in Egypt in the Egyptian Court– so he learned to be haughty and imperious and directing and willful. He then, needed to spend another 40 years being a Midianite Shepherd in order to learn to become humble and obscure and uh less confidence in himself. That was only when he was about 80 that he became a Jew and learned and that everybody complains. So, I think, you know, Moses is quite an interesting model, because he wasn’t a kind of ‘Show-offy’, ‘Listen to me, everybody’- I’m the guy. I mean, you know, he even wasn’t confident that he could talk to the people at all.

Hayden Cohen  38:16 

Well he couldn’t, Right?

Clive Lawton  38:16 

Well, we don’t know, as much. That’s Midrash for you. But, you know, I think that, That’s quite inspiring for us. And I know certainly when I do leadership training and around the world in various different contexts, you work with the people that you’re presented with. And there are a variety of ways of being a leader, and skills of being a leader. You know, if you look back through British History and look at the various people who were prime ministers, you can’t suggest they were all the same, or all at the same qualities or brought different things to that. And the lucky person is the one who knows how to capitalise on what they have. It’s a lovely model to that Moshe says he can’t do it. And he’s given Aaron and Miriam turns up too.   And they make a kind of triumvirate. Because any decent leader, is smart enough to know there’s some things I can’t do. I do very well to have a trustworthy…

Hayden Cohen  38:25 

Trailer?

Clive Lawton  38:29 

Partner

Hayden Cohen  38:32 

Sounds a bit like Harry Potter. Right?

Clive Lawton  39:05 

Well, it is, it is in many Look, there was nothing original in Harry Potter. Let’s just remember that?

Hayden Cohen  39:09 

(Laughs)

Clive Lawton  40:08 

Yeah, why not? Let’s give it a go. “Well, why don’t you step up to that”, rather than “Oh, I don’t know, if you’re up to it”, you haven’t done Level 3 training before you–Means to say that people blossom. Because no human being uses their full potential. We are all of us dreadful at that. And therefore, if any organisational setting says come here and do something with it, then people invariably impress. And that’s one of the things wrong with schools. Again, we’re already constantly trying to decide how they failed. Now, they’re not good enough, or they haven’t quite made the grade.  Instead of giving people their heads, and  trusting them. You get a bunch of adolescents in a school and you trust them, The sky’s the limit. All right, nobody’s more creative, dynamic, enthusiastic, determined than adolescents, when they’re not being told what to do. And what schools do, they screw them down and tell them to wear stupid ties and stuff like that, as if that’s gonna make them grow

Hayden Cohen  41:03 

Have you seen the research, the fascinating research that says that one of the reasons why the UK produces a disproportionate number of creatives, so say famous artists, musicians, whatever– Is because of that authoritarian school system, which matches with it with living in a free society, So it means that, that kids can push against it? So they’ve got something to push against? Whereas, in environments where everyone’s all hippie- dippie, and a bit like “You go and do whatever you want”, they don’t end up doing very much creative activity, because they’ve given so much freedom, they don’t know what to do with it?

Clive Lawton  41:43 

Well, that would work perhaps, if the people who were the creatives were the people who largely succeeded through the system.  But nine times out of 10, they’re dropouts, or they will tell you how the system never did them any good or how they couldn’t wait to get out or whatever it may be. The entrepreneurial instinct is not mostly nurtured by schools. Now I have to say, of course there are certain schools which are shining exceptions to this all up and down the country of every sort. And, and I think, generally speaking, Jewish schools because of the idiosyncrasy of Jews.  The you know– Jews are very committed to the individualism and the right. “I’ve got my rights”. My opinion matters. And all of that means to say that schools are really…  Although they try desperately hard to pretend they’re Eton, right? They couldn’t, couldn’t whip people into shape at all. Luckily, so the kids come out gloriously independent and individual, however hard the school tried to bang them into school uniform and so on. So that instinct of Jews to be entirely unorganisable is our saving grace. And it’s one of the things that makes I think Jews frequently rise to the top in all kinds of structures. But no, I don’t think it’s our regimented structure that makes us infinitely more exciting and creative. It’s, I mean, it’s an interesting thing. Certainly in the 60s and 70s of the people who went to art school who came out and did this stuff.  It’s not the people who got lots of A-Levels and went to university and went to the public schools and so forth. Course.

Hayden Cohen  43:07 

Well, now it is right?

Hayden Cohen  43:08 

So well, I was gonna say–  What the public schools have done, is they got ahead of the game again frequently got ahead of the game. And they now know, that cultivating people’s individuality and their artistic skills and so forth, much more important than just trying to get them to jump through a bunch of hoops. Ultimately, if you’ve been to Eton, having 24 GCSE Grade A stars, is not what’s going to make you Prime Minister. It’s about your capacity to debate. (Laughs)

Hayden Cohen  43:35 

or getting PPE from Oxford?

Clive Lawton  43:37 

Yeah. But that’s right.

Clive Lawton  43:38 

But, you know how to do that. And they teach you the self confidence to walk in and shake hands and sell yourself. And it’s there to…Again that, Jews are good at, because Jews have that, you know, wonderfully disproportionate self confidence. And so to that extent, that’s, you know, there’s a remarkable virtue and privilege that Jews have,

Hayden Cohen  43:38 

(Laughs)

Hayden Cohen  43:59 

So Yeah,  It’s interesting about the confidence thing, though, is it? Is it.  Do you think Jews do have that confidence? Or do you think the Jews that everyone’s heard of and seen have that confidence? which are two very different things?

Clive Lawton  44:10 

Yeah, I think Jews are lippy. As a general rule, they talk more, they argue more. I think this is something to do with the Jewish tradition of argument and debate, questioning. I mean, you know, the Seder, the four questions, the little kids go to ask them questions.  And there’s this bizarre British line, you know, “Children should be seen and not heard”. I mean, it’s impossible concept in the Jewish world that everybody goes, “Oh, shush shush, no, I was gonna say something” and 25 adults around the table have to shut up while he whistles on about some nonsense. And you know, they’ll always go “Oh he’s so clever”.

Clive Lawton  44:43 

So everybody thinks that every child is amazing, and that’s wonderful. And I think that, generally speakin, there is that tremendous enthusiasm, commitment. By the way, I think Bar Mitzvah is a remarkable element in that process. And when I was head of King David in Liverpool, half of our children were not Jews. The other half were obviously were. And a significant proportion of my staff were not Jews, but they told me that even if they didn’t know which weekend a boy was Bar Mitzvah, they could tell on Monday. He walked a little taller. Something had happened over that weekend, where that boy did cross a line. Now you and I may not observe that, because we’re so preoccupied with how many Parker pens he’s gotten. Stupid, you know, sculpted and chopped liver and whatever. And we don’t we we know all the accesses and stupidities of it but something goes on inside that boy at that moment at age 13 that makes him think, “I should take myself seriously”. It might wear off after a few months or something, but it’s happened to him and it is in there. I, it is highly significant. And it’s marvelous to see it happening now for girls as well because, girls go through a different thing, which is menstruation. So whether or not they had had that ceremony, they also go through A moment where they suddenly, consciously or unconsciously stand a bit taller and go, “Oh Blimey, I’ve become an adult”. I’m now childbearing potentially. I mean, that’s unimaginable, isn’t it for us as men to know what that’s about. But I think that’s remarkable. And I think despite what we say about the traditions of you know, men and women– Women don’t kind of go and stuff. Generally speaking in the Jewish world, women, I think have been pretty assertive and participatory and listened to.

Hayden Cohen  46:33 

Well, it’s sort of something in terms of leadership roles. It’s only recently right? where women have started to get those seniors?

Clive Lawton  46:41 

To take, to take leadership roles in in mixed environments. So yes, to become president of the Board of Deputies or whatever– Yes, but, what did women do then instead, they set up equally potent female organisations.  Because they couldn’t break in, so they set up something like WIZO. I mean, nobody took no notice of WIZO. It wasn’t a it wasn’t a nothing organisation, the League of Jewish women. I mean, these were significant bodies that still are, make a big impact on the community and make demands of the community. You can’t ignore them. You can’t pretend they’re not there.

Hayden Cohen  47:15 

You can’t ignore WIZO

Clive Lawton  47:15 

Well, that’s right. Exactly. And, you know, it was Go-getting it was creative, it was dynamic, it was assertive. It was all of those things and gave lots of women again, the opportunity to train participate. And when you compare that with its sister organisations, like, you know, the town’s women’s guild or those kinds of things.  It is astonishing, the level of assertiveness, creativity, determination. Think of the 35’s in the Soviet Jewry movement, a bunch of women who came together and said we are going to deal with this. There’s no sign then that somehow women were told to wait while the men got their act together or something. The women just went and did it. And people like Natan Sharansky are perfectly clear, that 35s were hugely significant in the Soviet Jewry Campaign.

Hayden Cohen  47:21 

I need to tell my quick Limmud Natan Sharansky story.

Clive Lawton  48:06 

Right

Hayden Cohen  48:06 

 So, this was, I don’t know when it was maybe five years ago, we came to Limmud something like that. And I was doing Tech or putting some video or audio stuff. And I was at the back of Ram1 yeah, the lecture room Ram1, where they had their own tech booth. And I was just in there, fiddling. Before I know it, a door flies open– Natan Shransky comes in, storms in, closes the door, but he wants to get away from all the people and just starts like, staring at me pacing it. “I need to get away from these people”. And he started like pacing and I’m like, I’m not going to start fanboying on Natan Sharansky when he’s in that mood. I just got o wait for him. And it was just, it was such a wonderful experience. It would only ever happen at Limmud

Clive Lawton  48:52 

What a wonderful thought, isn’t it that a man who was subjected to solitary confinement and prison, finds too many people unacceptable. He wants to get himself into a little cell and pace up and down in order to be happy. So nobody’s quite happy with whatever situation they’re in.

Hayden Cohen  49:09 

(Laughs) Right?. I feel like to be perf…. I feel like we could go on for quite a while.

Clive Lawton  49:15 

(Laughs)

Hayden Cohen  49:16 

And I think we’d probably like to get you back at some point in the future to maybe do a part two.

Clive Lawton  49:22 

Alright.

Hayden Cohen  49:22 

But for the moment, Clive Lawton, thank you so so much.

Clive Lawton  49:26 

Thank you.

Hayden Cohen  49:27 

Well, I hope you enjoyed that. And if you want to hear more around the year from Clive, he does a lot of Jewish teaching at JW3 in London and at Limmud events across the known universe. The main second episode is coming in the next I don’t know two or three weeks or something. It depends how busy life gets. I want to try and have a schedule but you know, life’s hard and gets in the way of podcasting. Grrr….. Until next time, share and share alike bagel podcast.com, I’m on Facebook, Twitter, is everywhere you’d expect to be really until then, Shalom Aleichem.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai with additional editing by Ronni Bloch

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Before that here are the various links:

If you have something to say email – oy@bagelpodcast.com

Mailing List Signup (there are prizes to be won) – Congratulations to Jo Lebor from Leeds who won a dozen bagels! – Mailing List

Like us on Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/bagelpodcast

Follow us on Twitter – https://twitter.com/bagelpodcast

00:00 – Introduction

Hayden introduces you to the world of the bagel

Pre Mushroom forage chat with Mike Green – For more foraging check out his Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/intrepidforager/

05:47 – Talmud for Schmeryls

I’m joined by Rabbi Debbie Young-Somers who explains the structure of the Talmud although that makes it sound more boring than it is. Rashi gets more than an honourable mention!

13:07 – Better Know a Jewish Charity

Ben Crowne talks about the private ambulance service, Hatzola, and the drama going on there.

19:50 – Mushrooms (Part 2)

The Mushroom Forage!!! Mike and I are joined by Tilla Crowne

27:56 – What Israeli Going on?

I chat with Israeli journalist Gilad Halpern about the reasons behind the upcoming Israeli elections. Listen to Gilad’s own podcast: The Tel Aviv Review, here – https://tlv1.fm/podcasts/tel-aviv-review-show/

37:24 – Ask Julia

Julia Gazdag answers what to do when you’ve cooked too much food.

39:55 – Cooking With Denise

Jewish chef Denise Philips talks to us about the history of the bagel. She also does lessons! Book yours here – https://jewishcookery.com/

45:32 – Bagel Broigus

On the first Broigus we discuss the future for left wing Jews. This was recorded when I was running out of time at Limmud Festival so the pacing is rather swift! Featuring Rabbi Michael Muskowitz, Marjorie Ingal, Daniel Anderson, Ben Crowne and Julia Gazdag.

1:02:35 – The Rubashkin Conclusion

For those who don’t know, I explain the Shlomo Rubashkin affair. Unfortunately, as hard as I tried I couldn’t find anyone to talk to me who was pro Rubashkin and I tried a lot of people! If I missed you out, please do get in touch as I want the Bagel to be a place for Jews of all stripes – oy@bagelpodcast.com 

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